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Damn. I kind of agree with you. Are you embarassed too?

Real stoopid. Your avatar pic is a Buhddist Mandala and your Thoreau sig is a New Testament remake from the Utopian period. But you have no respect for religion. Now that's stoopid.

Yeah KKKK. When are you going to call up Tvash and invite him out for a climb? Post a pic of you two with an arm around each other's shoulders and an ice ax raised by the other hand on a significant peak, Stuart, even Sherpa, or some such peak that clearly demonstrates time spent working together and I will get a pic of me in a tutu on the same spot.

IRONY ALERT KKKK, are you trying to say that your anger is subtle and a person needs to know you well to detect it? REREAD 100 of your posts at random.

Actually, the difference between you and me is that I respond to you what you actually write, and you pretend to actually know me. To be comfortable with the fact that some things remain unexplained is not to be incurious about them, BTW. Anyone who knows me would have a good laugh at that characterization. I will admit that I'm not very curious about crowd pleasing magic tricks, like 'lifting fog'. In other words, I'm not that gullible. Even most Northern Californians wouldn't fall for that crap. And I said you are dissatisfied with the universe the way it is, not bored with it. If you were not, you would not be looking to charlatans like Master Chuan and his Linebackers for answers. Well, surprise, surprise, I've already gone through the requisite early-20s study of buhddism, taoism, the philosophers, and incorporated what resonated into my life. You see, a lack of belief in Master Chuan does not constitute a lack of appreciation for these Eastern philosophies which, sadly, you seem to think are something novel to the rest of us here. I do have a little credibility test I employ before I waste my time reading some clown's drivel. You should try it sometime. Christianity, in any form, fails the test across the board. I can get "Love thy neighbor", the only useful takeaway I've been able to glean from Christianity, from a number of other sources with much more robust teachings. You are too quick to categorize that which you do not readily beleive. That is the fundamentalism I am talking about seeing in what you post. So you have studied Buhddism. Yet you do not respect an emmissary of the Tibetan council of Masters. Have you actually met him? Have you looked at what he can do and studied what he has to teach? It does not seem likely. You "would not fall for that crap." That is a lack of curiousity in my book. Your reasons are your own and you are welcome to them as I am welcome to mine. As I post here I try to meet people at their level of civility. You do not "seem" to like being treated with the same disrespect with which you treat me. The "requisite early-20s study of buhddism, taoism, the philosophers" does not scratch the surface of these subjects. It would be like expecting to converse at Hawkings level after the same cursory sniff. But you will not beleive that it is possible for these subjects to be in the same ballpark will you? You read a few sentences on the internet and are ready to discount a tradition that has taken thousands of years to develope. Just as you discounted the Vedic traditions, which have been around even longer, because of a few hacks in Northern California. I would say you are lucky they didn't pick science to hack. We would be doing Yoga together. Peace out on your photography and climbing brother. You ARE good at that.

Actually, the difference between you and me is that you lack curiosity about the things that science does not explain. You lash out at concepts that are not based on science as though they are patently false in the same ignorant way that religious fundamentalists lash out at science. Why is there no room for exploration? Einstein said that he would never have come up with the theory of realativity without having studied Taoism. Bored with this world as it is? You sell yourself short with stupid comments like that. You do not know me at all and yet you are arrogant enough to say that you know how I feel? What I am thinking? You are getting very boring. Go back to your little world where everything is defined and categorized and be amazed. Be comfortable that something is unexplained. Go ahead and leave it that way. Weld something. I see no point in trying to discuss this with you further as you are too emotional and unable to reason logically. Even I, beleiving in things we cannot see, do not beleive I can read minds.

My sources in Chicogo, (family members who only hear rumours), say he is a Daly style hack who muscled his way to the top with no agenda except to get rich and have power.

Where are the negatives?

Peace out. Wake me up when it gets really cool.

Ah. In your first post I thought you meant that your friends were talkin smack about your gf and then went out with her after you split up. Sorry. Too much day time tv lately.

It's smelling more and more like northern California in here.

Yes. My boobs are still perky.

Careful. You may end up being accused of using pechuli oil.

Maybe he landed on manboobs like yours. That would explain the sagging.

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHH Beleive!

OK, Yoga Guy. You're the Spiritual Boss. PS I grew up in Northern California, so I can smell your tired Vedic bullshit from space. You have such a narrow little perspective. Spray is a good place for you to spread your "intellectual" wings. You clearly have not read much on the broader study of religion or socio-cultural anthropology. Going to a Catholic school or living in Northern California is more like a handicap than an education on religion or spirituality. They are two extremes and both very sad examples of practice gone awry. But I fear I have hurt your feelings by spraying with the same vigor as you. Seems like I just had this happen with someone else on this board. Oh yeah! You remind me of KKKK. Perhaps he will climb with you now that you can see what you have in common.

See? You are fundamentalists. It is not in the science book, therefor it cannot be. Cheers!

Dude, how could you see anger in that post? (my god I said baby Jebus was cute!) Doesn't matter which religion is the majority its the minorities that need protecting from mob rule - Im sure youve heard that. And yes, science rules, even the Dalai Lama said his "Dharma" (Buddhist teachings) must defer to science because it is empirically based *and not anecdotally based (*my words). Myth is cool though, but we now have art, pyschology and such (although some scientists still reject psy as just another "religion") so Im not sure that religion serves much of a purpose beyond dividing people into ins and outs. In fact Im fairly certain it doesn't. But as I said some religions are better than others. For a non-theistic "religion" for instance Zen Buddhism is fairly cool but has a tendency to become rather cult like at times itself. But if its altered states and deep introspection your after nothing beats quantum Physics imo - maybe some vitamin A once and a while too Read the Tao of Physics or the Dhali Lahmma's last book. I forget the title but it is an up-to-date version of the Tao of physics except that it approaches the relationship between physics and spirituality from the spiritual side while the Tao of Physics approaches it from the side of physics. Both are pretty non-denominational as far as spirituality goes. As for acid. I don't reccommend it because I have seen people have a really hard time on it. But for me, it opened my eyes to possibilities beyond what science can currently explain. Science will get there eventually. Meanwhile, I want to keep those experiences alive and well. I have been doing so without drugs for a long time now. Tai Chi, Chi Gung, and now my first foray into Vedic disciplines, Isha Yoga. All are very focused on the relationship between physics and spirit. Master Chuan was sent here in the early nineties to show the UW Physics department some of the things he could do that physics had no way to explain (he was a Phd in physics). He rose steam off the bay by the stadium. He focused it on one spot and dissipated it. He had two strong football players try to push him over. They could not budge this small old man one inch. There is so much that is not known and is currently unknowable through pure science. Why do so many of you resist so vehemently? It seems almost like fear. Or like the way Fairweather and KKKK still hold to modern republican principles. Why does science have to be involved for you to enjoy it? Science is just one path amoung many.

Give me a fucking break. Exactly how, in any real way, are Christians in this country 'being persecuted'? Are you being denied the right to marry? Forced to have children you don't want to bear? Being denied jobs? Housing? Loans? The ability to worship as freely as you wish? Or is reading criticism on a forum full of the non-religious you willingly and actively participate in your definition of 'persecution'? Some of us would simply call it that self flagellation, which, I realize, has some religious history in itself. We hear this A LOT from the evangelicals, how persecuted they are. In the very next sentence they claim, as you have just now, that Christians are the majority in this country. Um...pretty hard to persecute a majority, unless you're South Africa or something. This schtick is nothing more than an old and tired propoganda ploy to divide US from THEM in an effort to more efficiently fleece the flock and justify the persecution Christians actively seek against other groups, such as gays, whom they feel violate the beliefs of their cult. Once again, you are posting your twisted view of religion as though you are some kind of expert. You only flagellate yourself posting such arrogant ignorance. You see, the Christians I hang out with would not go along with the accusations you insinuate in your post. Never the less, we are seen by the majority as being one of them because we are Christians. My father is an atheist and smokes cigars so that means you smoke cigars right? You are not reading anything that I post. You are just flaming irrationally.

Reread and try again. You are way off of what I said. In fact, you seem to be saying the same thing except that you bristle at the thought of being compared to religious fundamentalists who try to force their beleifs on you.

I knew a guy named Bruce Anderson who got tired of being called to see if he was "that" Bruce Anderson. He got a certification on the internet and entered his name in the phone book as Rev Bruce Anderson. He also performed the wedding ceremony for his sister. She now calls him "the polyp on the asshole of the universe." He just reminds her that she can get a divorce on the internet.

Maybe your "friends" are afraid to tell you the truth.

No arguement here. Have you written your congressional delegation? Probably better to not have yourself marked that way actually.

While there was indeed a part that was that "gist", there were also specifics as to what truely drives a spiritual person and the validity of religion in the proper context. As an added bonus, there were references to the value of "mythology" as it functioned throughout history as the library for all collective knowledge and wisdom of the respective society. The second part of your last post seems driven by anger and an unwillingness to accept democratic principles. Christianity is still the religion of the majority. If you feel it is "in your face" to have these religious displays in a government building then I would submit that you are a scientific fundamentalist. The religious displays are not intended to be denouncements of other peoples beliefs as the sign in question was. They were displays of beliefs that should be allowed as long as they do not deny the rights of others. I would invite you and the Enumclaw Church of Animal Husbandry to put up your display and see how it plays out in this democratic society. That would be entertaining. Which seems to be the purpose of news these days. But that is thread drift......

Since there is no way to prove this scientifically, I will insert an "imo" here for you. Again, there is an inability to address the topic from anything but a forced application of the negative aspects of some, or maybe even most, religious factions. A study of contemporary religious philosophy would beneefit those who choose to "fix" their own perceptions of relious beliefs and practicees on the concept as a whole. It makes no more sense to argue against outdated expressions of religion than it does to argue against outdate scientific principles. Interesting twist on an old concept. The mystics of many traditions, including christianity, expressed a "loss of self" or "nothingness" as the way to find God. The mystics were usually labelled as heritics by the fundamentalist factions of their respective religious traditions. This is off the wall. Even childish in a way. Evolution does not mean there is no God and if there is a God, it does not mean there was no evolution. Again, the study of "Mythology" as an anthropological term would make this more understandable to those who beleive in a fundamentalist approach to religion or that all religious practitioners are fundamentalists. Not all religious people act that way. Those that do are behind the curve. In the "evolution" of the study of religion and even the "academic" study of spirituality, these concepts you are presenting here are no longer relevant. It would be like trying to prove that science was bunk based on 19th century scientific principles. Never the less, I share your frustration with those religious practitioners who feel the need to prove a literal belief in ancient mythologies. It is, however, throwing the baby out with the bath water to deem these mythologies as worthless. It makes no more sense than burning all of Shakespear's works or dispensing with recorded history. The Old and New Testaments and the Quran, are brilliant works. They reflect the process of mankinds' coming to awareness as you noted above. They hold great relevance for the study of social phsycology and even personal reflection. There is a wealth of profound human experiences described in parables, analogies, allegory and untold nuances we have yet to identify. Regardless of which basecamp you are in, it is foolish to ignore the richness of the other camp. Even as we argue, we are more alike than not.