JayB

Another obscure crag I'd put in the stiff catagory are the small cliffs outside of Los Alamos, NM. Never climbed in the Sandia's but I heard they're tough....

Yeah - could be that I'm just especially bad on limestone. Most people that climbed there seemed to think that the grades were about right. I'd put it at about 1 letter grade easier than Smith based on my limited experience at the area. Certainly not sandbagged but it didn't seem ludicrously overgraded to me either. There's also the sport vs trad thing. Shelf is a sport area if there ever was one, and sport ratings seem to be easier than trad ratings no matter where you go. I think it's mainly a product of the fact that most trad areas had a lot of activity when 9's and 10's were at the top of the grades, and most sport areas came along quite a bit later.

I'd add Shelf Road to the "Just About Right" category, same with Darrington and Static Point, though my experience at those two places is more limited. It's pretty obscure, but there's this crag called Dream Canyon outside Boulder that I'd toss in the easy category. What about City of Rocks and Checkamus (sp?) Canyon?

I'd put Veduawoo WY and the South Platte in CO on the stiff list. Eldorado Canyon too. Pretty much every area where most of the routes were put up when 5.9-5.10 were the highest grades is going to be fairly stiff, if no one has upped the grades over time.

Most guys I know have no trouble committing when they find the right woman/are convinced that they can do no better.

Add a couple more weeks for the yogurt and brown-rice diet, eh? You are a piece of work!!! I'll tell you what, Jay B.....save all of that "bet y'can't" money and see a counselor about your self-loathing attitude. I won't pitch in because some of the others around here in similar need might expect a similar handout. I don't know you, I don't know what you do for a living....all I can say is that......ah....never mind. Enjoy your life and abilities to the extent you will allow yourself to do so. Hint...may not have been thinking about my own physique...

Speak no evil is a bolted slab on the far right - that is, on the right side of the formation about 50 meters to the climbers right of the formation with the majority of the cracks on it. Never climbed it. Never heard of someone chipping a slab before. What in particular convinced you that the holds on that route were chipped? Was there a perfectly symmetrical pocket or crimper right at the crux or something?

....Edited comment about physique consistent with redpointing 5.13...

You're just making things harder on yourself. Just admit that you have never climbed 5.13, cannot climb 5.13, and never will climb 5.13 and this will all go away. Redpointing a legitimate 5.13, like running a sub 11 second 100 Meter Dash, is a standard that very few will ever realize. Having a due appreciation for exactly how difficult climbing at such a standard is and duly acknowledging the strength and skill that doing so requires is one thing, derrogating one's own abilities is another. Me saying that I'll probably never climb hard enough to 5.13 represents a realistic assesment of the level of drive and talent that I bring to the sport - and a due apreciation of the true nature of the difficulty involved. When you claim that redpointing a 5.13 sport route represents a trivial accomplishment that you could duplicate fairly easily, you are talking shit, plain and simple. I am calling you on it. I'll send a check with your name on it for $100 to the folks that run this site, and leave it undated, for you to claim the instant that you redpoint a 5.13. If all you do in response to this wager is talk, then you've made my point more forcefully than I ever could. Don't take all of this too personally. I wouldn't expect any less from you if the tables were turned and I was the one making the outrageous claims. I think we are up to $400 between myself, Kurt, Slaphappy, and RuMr. That'd buy a whole lot of Mickeys, my friend.

fine....you stated that your friends couldn't crank 5.13 on their spare time... what dwayner implied is that it would require climbing to be your job... hence the allusion to the dollar figures he would require... this is because he could not do so with a full time job... Most people- including myself - couldn't climb 5.13 even if doing so was their sole object in life. If someone is climbing hard 12's when climbing is merely a past-time then perhaps their claims that they could redpoint 5.13 if only they had enough time would have some credibility. If Dwayner heads down to Smith next weekend and sends some 12's then perhaps his claims would be worth something, but in the absence of any such evidence, they deserve the ridicule that they are getting.

Fence: I wasn't trying to dodge your argument or pick a fight with you dude. However, your entry was poorly written, and had no clear meaning. It could be interpreted a number of different ways, which is why I asked for a clarification.

spare time...i do believe hommes implied that they would receive ample compensation that they not need jobs and can dedicate all time to climbing... quite the difference... It goes like this: Subject--->Verb----->Noun. Some of us slow kids need complete sentences to understand what you are trying to say, homes.

I don't typically hang from bolts or try to lead routes that are well beyond my abilities for the simple fact that I don't enjoy it. I find it terribly frustrating and not especially pleasant. If overestimate my abilities and get shut-down, but I think there's a reasonable chance that I can get up the thing, I'll keep going - not because it's fun but because I just don't want to leave any gear on the route. If there's someone that can lead the route and get the gear back, I'll gladly pass the baton to them and get on something that I will actually enjoy. Every now and then I'll take a beating and come back for more, but not often. No deeper motivations or philosophical barriers to hangdogging for me. I just don't enjoy it.

Come now, Dwayner. You haven't just issued this challenged on behalf of Richard Simmons and his grandma, but you have said, and you repeated here, that YOU could climb 5.13. I think you may be a little over confident and I (for one) would be impressed to see you climb ANY 5.13 in the State of Washington, given ANY amount of training and rehearsing. Start practicing! Hey Man - this is just like the good old days. Where's Lambone? Bolting permanently alters the rock. That's a matter of fact. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of opinion. If your actions are inconsistent with your rhetoric this does, in fact, render you a less effective advocate for the opinions you espouse. Unlike your claim that the advent of sport-climbing has had a number of detrimental effects on the sport, your claim that you could redpoint a legitimate 5.13 route is eminently testable. If doing so is as trivial as you have claimed, it shouldn't take you very long at all to do so. I personally think that the real reason that you've declined to even try is that you'll get shut down cold, every time, no matter how hard you try. I'd be willing to bet that you could dedicate every remaining moment of your life to the task and never even come close. This is not to say that you have not or cannot climb at a high level. I've been around some people that climb at an extremely high level relative to the general climbing population - folks that were leading in the low 12's on trad routes (very rare) and in the mid to high 12's sport (not as rare but fairly uncommon) - and they couldn't even touch 5.13. These were fairly talented people at their peak of their fitness, dedicating just about all of their spare time to the sport. The fact that so few people ever even comes close to redpointing 5.13 sport routes proves that sport routes at that level are exceptionally difficult, and require a level of strength and skill that very few climbers will ever have. You claim the opposite. I say that your current and future inability to even come close to climbing such a route settles the argument. We've met. Your not a bad guy, and even though my posts might sound hostile, they are really not meant to be. But listening to you claim that you could climb 5.13 if you really wanted to is like listening to a buddy claim that he could hook-up a three-way with Heidi Klum and the Playmate of the Year if he wanted to. I'd laugh at him and call bullshit on his claim immediately, as I'm doing with your claim that you are capable of redpointing a legit 5.13 now. If I'm wrong, prove it and I'll apologize.

I thought that this was going to be something about Dean Potter....

Wow. That's pretty amazing. I haven't been following the news on the uber-high end sport climbing front for a while. Just sort of wondering what kind of a track record they have. Having said that, has Realization seen a repeat?

Have any of these guys claiming 5.15a and higher redpointed Realization yet? Seems like they'd want to do that to establish some cred first.

7mm static.

Sweet mother of God...

Maybe we should apply the usual explanation for violence against gays here, in which case the reason for the attacks was the attacker's violent response to their own persistent attraction to America, and their deep seated fear that underneath all of their Canadian bluster, they are actually American.... Seriously though. This sucks. It's too bad it happened, but I'm glad that no one got seriously killed or hurt up there. I also think that the RCMP dude they quoted is a complete idiot, as his comments are tantamount to accusing the Americans of violating a well-known standard of getting-savagely-beaten-by-an-angry-mob etiquette and decorum. Anyone who's ever been on the receiving end of such a thing knows how unreasonable it is to expect someone getting jacked while hopelessly outnumbered to express anything but blind rage while it is happening. I also think that this could just have easily have happened on this side of the border, so pinning this incident on any failing unique to Canada is an out and out crock.

U.S. campers attacked in Canada 07/09/2003 By ERIC WILKINSON / KING 5 News SQUAMISH, B.C. A group of Washington campers was attacked and terrorized in British Columbia by at least 20 Canadian teenagers who burned a tent, beat a camper, and threatened others with a knife; all while shouting anti-American slurs. The incidence happened July 1 at a campsite of a popular climbing area in Squamish, B.C.; 30 miles north of Vancouver. The teenagers were there celebrating Canada Day, going on a drunken rampage and attacking three American campers. "I thought someone was gonna get killed or hurt pretty badly,"; said camper Shannon Scott. "I was hysterical. I'm still shaky thinking about it." Squamish is a popular rock-climbing destination. The Americans told Canadian authorities they were pelted with rocks, their tent was torn apart and sleeping bags set on fire. One camper was apparently even chased by a young man wielding a large knife. Kennewick firefighter Jay Barkley says his car windows were smashed, tires slashed and he was beaten unconscious. The campers from Ephrata and the Tri-Cities say it all apparently started with some verbal jousting over Canada Day versus Fourth of July that got way out of hand. Meanwhile Canadian authorities are investigating reports that the Americans may have provoked the attack. "One of the U.S. citizens said the next time he comes back to Canada he's gonna bring a gun, and when you say statements like that it does nothing to calm the situation. It only fuels the situation," said Cliff Doherty, Royal Canadian Mounted Police. The Americans say they don't want to make this an anti-Canada issue. In fact, they say, everyone else they dealt with there was very helpful and apologetic, even giving them free rides and discounts on hotels. The mayor of Squamish calls this an isolated incident. "

Spent most of my Senior year in high school as an exchange student in Australia. Travelling is good. Will do more as time and $ permit.

I'm very sorry to hear of your loss, Ryland. This is not advice, just my philosophy concerning funerals that I'll share. The reason I go to funerals has very to do with my own feelings or needs, and quite a bit to do with the needs of those closest to the person that passed away - especially the family. Even if you don't interact with the wife, parents, children directly - seeing all of the people that were involved in the deceased's life come forward to pay their respects and mourn his or her passing does, in fact, bring a great deal of comfort to those that were left behind, and I think that they are worth attending for that reason alone. The same is true if it's a gathering of close friends.

Word. Thanks for setting this up Scott.