Fairweather

Eddie, Yes, with nukes or similar. (fuel-air explosives) Yes, we advise them (the host country of these terrorist dogs...not Afghanistan for sure) that a certain city may be a bad real estate investment in, say 48 hours. "Nuclear" stirs up some terrible passions I'm quite aware, but we killed more people in Dresden and Tokyo with incendiaries than we did with the two attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Other than helping Muslims in Kuwait, Saudi, and Bosnia, I'm not sure what "land" of theirs we currently occupy. We pay them a fair price for their oil...its called trade. Last time I checked Louis Farhakam was the leader of The Nation of Islam.

Eddie, We have no chance of measurable success with ground troops in Afghanistan. The entire country is a defenders dream...and winter is on the way. The Soviets were humiliated...and they were real bad-asses back then. Since the American public rightfully is not accepting of long protracted wars with American dead, and since a short volley of cruise missiles is terribly short of what is required, I think an appropriate response that says to terrorists and the rest of the world that we mean business is the complete destruction of an UNOCCUPIED city. 6000 dead Americans/other nationals can't be left unanswered for and frankly anything less than a brutal response will only invite more of the same. As for Islam...Every time there is a terror attack I hear, "this does not represent the real beliefs of Islam"... Well you know what? I don't believe it anymore. Budism (sp?) seems to be one of the few religons that hasn't at one time of another tried to forcibly convert the world, or at least its neighbors. You still haven't answered my position that Islam is an affront to women. Can they vote in ANY Islamic nation? Maybe Pakistan or Egypt? Certainly not Saudi, UAE, Yemen, Sudan, Iran, Afghanistan, etc, etc, etc.

Eddie, We have no chance of measurable success with ground troops in Afghanistan. The entire country is a defenders dream...and winter is on the way. The Soviets were humiliated...and they were real bad-asses back then. Since the American public rightfully is not accepting of long protracted wars with American dead, and since a short volley of cruise missiles is terribly short of what is required, I think an appropriate response that says to terrorists and the rest of the world that we mean business is the complete destruction of an UNOCCUPIED city. 6000 dead Americans/other nationals can't be left unanswered for and frankly anything less than a brutal response will only invite more of the same. As for Islam...Every time there is a terror attack I hear, "this does not represent the real beliefs of Islam"... Well you know what? I don't believe it anymore. Budism (sp?) seems to be one of the few religons that hasn't at one time of another tried to forcably convert the world, or at least its neighbors. You still haven't answered my position that Islam is an affront to women. Can they vote in ANY Islamic nation? Maybe Pakistan or Egypt? Certainly not Saudi, UAE, Yemen, Sudan, Iran, Afghanistan, etc, etc, etc.

AlpineTom, Hayduke, and Eddie, It appears to me that you have all thrived in the world of academia...Western of Evergreen, no doubt...where concepts "moral equivalency" (tolerance ...that all political and religous systems are equally valid)are forced into the minds of those with no real world experience to the contrary. I couldn't help but notice that not even one of you bothered to counter my stand with any debate at all...just the typical "shout it down" dribble that our public universities encourage. I'm sure that you all ( better yet, your daughters, wives, mothers) would really enjoy life under Islam. I'll take secularism any day. Good luck to you. Hayduke; aren't you the same guy who said terrorism was OK if it was "for the Earth"?

....Let me add...IF Bin Laden is the guilty one...Bush seems to be doing the right thing in sorting out all the facts first.

The idea that America is to blame for all of the worlds ills is, quite simply, liberal guilt bullshit. We are hated in the world of Islam because in their minds, our values represent a threat to theirs. I am always amazed when I hear "progressive-minded" people rush to the defense of Islam; the same religon that relegates women and girls to lives of serfdom/servitude and grows like a cancer in places like Indonesia and The Phillipines. The same religon that seems to be incompatable with the ideals of liberty and democracy. Indeed, The Russians have been trying to keep this disease from spreading northward into their heartland with varying degrees of success for several years now. Now is not a time for our country to show any weakness...or mercy. Let Bin Laden be responsible for bringing the wrath of our country down on those who support him.

Not even one American soldier need die in this endeavor if we have the will to use our ultimate weapon on those who did this to us. Power is the only thing these people understand, and we've shown too much weakness and timidity over the years.

Get that new book by The Mountaineers: "75 Scrambles in the Cascades", and take your kids WITH you...

As a father of a 15 yr old and a 12 year old, and a climber for over 20 years I say you can have the best of both worlds. My 12 year old has been to Muir a couple times since he was 8, and when he was 10 we climbed a minor peak together in the Wrangell Mountains in Alaska. (Donohoe Peak, right under Mount Blackburn...awesome place) Hundreds of miles of hikes, scrambles, and snow climbs. He wants to climb Rainier, but I won't take him until he's 15 or 16. I still climb with others when doing more difficult climbs, but I certainly don't climb at the level I would without my first responsibility. I feel children are a responsibility that should preclude any unreasonable risk-taking. That level is different for everyone, but for me Mckinley or any Himalayan adventures will wait until my kids are in college. (I started my family when I was 23, so I'll still have a "window" to do big things later...I hope.) Why not include the kids at the "lower level" of mountain adventure and do the rest when your responsibilities lessen later on? I know that when I'm freezing my ass off up on Rainier at 2am my thoughts drift to hiking through Grand Park with my children, and I think to myself, "what am I doing here?" As far as Lowe and Hargraves, I feel they failed their primary responsibility which was to their children.

My flag is up...climbing seems so unimportant at a time like this.

Glacier Peak....Sunday and Monday. Sitkum Glacier. 6 1/2 hrs to foot of Sitkum Glacier. 3hrs 45 min to summit. Hiked out same day. Great weather!

pope, I have a question for you...what was Hemlock's "personal trainer's" name? And what did she do to "incentify/entice" him to keep running? Were they pink, or brown? The highlight of the entire movie (in my opinion).:-)

mattp, sounds like you had a good climb! Was there still snow in the big basin below the face? I've looked down the east face from the wide ledge of the normal route many times, but every time I contemplate doing that route I think about standard route climbers kicking loose rocks down the final gully just below the top and hence, down the east face. Was the rock solid on the face? Any problems with rockfall? ...Anyway, it was nice to see an Olympic Mtn. post for the first time in a while. My brother and I are going to do Mount Anderson, Eel Glacier from Hayden Pass a couple weeks from now. I'll be sure to add a trip report here...I don't want "Cascade Climbers" administrators to kill the "Olympic Climbers" section of this site! You do a lot in the Olympics? Love to hear!

Chuck, Did you solo? ! How is the route difficulty above the notch? Easy to protect?

Neri, I disagree with your conclusion that some people have no business in the mountains. I think that in this country (especially!) it is important that all people have the freedom to go wherever/whenever they wish on public lands. It is ironic that some socialist countries allow more freedom than The United States when it comes to climbing and hiking access. I am disgusted however that some on this site would make your mastery of written English an issue when your point was so obviously stated. By the way Matt; I understand GW speaks Spanish even better than English...but at least he isn't out trying to land grab, pardon murderers, get his *##%@ sucked while on the phone talking about troop deployments to Kosovo, nationalizing health care, stealing furniture, and burning cult-freaks out of their commune.

"Endurance" by Lansing is my favorite adventure story. Best mountaineering survival tale is "K2 The Savage Mountain" by Charles and Robert Bates. Incredible what these guys did attempting to save one of their own. I wonder if some of today's big expedition climbers would put themselves on the line like these guys did to save one life. No cell phones, no helicopters, no GPS, no Goretex (!)... just some physically and mentally tough dudes.

Anyone done Ptarmigan Traverse? Can it be done late season by a fast party in 3 days? Looks like it can by the book and map but some firsthand info would be especially helpful. Thanks.

...."what d'ya think?"..."I don't know. What do you think?"..."Well; I d'n know".........................."hmmm, what do you think?" "You think it'll go?"..."I don't know, what do you think?"....

Pope, went to Pierce (then Fort Steilacoom CC) in 81, 82, and 83. (spent too much time climbing, not enough studying) The climbing program was then in its infancy. "Ron Servine" was the director...is he still around? I live near Tacoma so we're probably not too far apart...geographically.

pope, peace. I loved your "big Lou" string. I've met the guy a few times and think he's great! How many of us can do what we love for our entire lives and make a living off of it too? You spend much time on "The Mountain"?

hakioawa, the only mountain I've ever driven to the top of in an air conditioned vehicle was Mauna Kea...and I felt guilty...the rest I climbed...hundreds, if not thousands, frankly. Because one holds views that don't "fit the stereotype" of climbers does't make them a tourist. (although I hold no ill will toward those that are...hell, we'll all get old someday. Should we stay at home and shrivel up?) I can assure you that my primary aim here is to stir debate. I'm tired of all climbers being painted with the same green brush. I'll admit that I have read only "The Monkeywrench Gang". Another of his "works" is called "Hayduke Lives". On the cover is a picture of a hand holding a bundle of TNT with a timing device attached and heavy equipment in the background.....I didn't bother to read it. (Just a question: would blowing up the Glenn Canyon Dam be an act of terrorism?) I won't beat this subject to death. I just wanted to point out the slippery slope that IS environmental terrorism. It is no different from any other form thereof.

Pope, McVeigh is no more a "buddy of mine" than the Unibomber is a buddy of yours. I think you were a bit over the line there. My attacks have been limited to Ed Abbey and his book/ideas. Why are your attacks personal? This is typical of those on the enviro/left. "Shout it down", or as you so perfectly stated:..."better yet,don't write." I guess I did take us on a bizzare detour from the Forest/Demo topic.

Retro, "...characters in his book were terrorists (for the environment)"... as if it is ok since it was "for the environment"?... He IS highly acclaimed indeed; by Earth First and ELF/ALF types who like to go aroung burning down ski resorts, rich folks homes, and university laboratories. His books gave them the formula for the loose asociations that they keep as well as the glorification of this type of terrorism. ....Oh yeah, I forgot...if it is "for the environment" then that makes it OK. Is that right? This is the type of mentality that allows people like McVeigh to blow up a building full of innocent people without remorse, or bomb an airliner out of the sky and harden themselves to the "collateral damage", or spike a tree without concern for the logger (father, son of someone) who could get a cutting chain wrapped around their head. No, I stand by my Edward Abbey analysis...he espoused terrorism as a means to further his agenda. He was a terrorist.

Uncle Tricky, "The late great Abbey"?? Surely you jest! Edward Abbey's "Monkey Wrench Gang" book puts him in a class with Timothy McVeigh and Osama Bin Laden. The man was a terrorist and his book is rightly considered a terrorist handbook. You shouldn't evoke the words of a terrorist to decry an over zealous Forest Service/government. Edward Abbey is not quote-worthy.

I am honestly undecided about the fee demo program. Maintaining access roads and trails does take $$$, and I did buy my $30 pass this year. What I DO have a problem with and refuse to pay are CLIMBING fees such as the "volcano pass" that gets you access to Adams, Baker, Shasta, StHelens. And what do these fees support???..."Climbing Programs". Maybe I can see this on Rainier where they use some of the money to haul the shit buckets down from Muir and Shurman, but where do they get off charging a fee for these other mountains? And all of the $$$ goes to pay for a few geeks in uniforms to make sure you...PAID YOUR FEE! Kind of an extortion racket if you ask me. Also; if I pay my USFS demo fee, then where do they get off trying to close the Middle Fork Snoqualmie Road just because a few enviro-geeks like hiking abandoned road bed? I paid my fee to KEEP IT OPEN! Right?