Marty

So steve you have concern if the person is a climber but none if they are a non climber? Is this one of the Spokane Mountaineers creedo's? This really smacks of elitism but I'll assume your post needs editing. Or should I assume otherwise?

Exactly High on Rock and Blowboarder. Since Dane lives in Issaquah and cant enforce the bolt ban himself he can if he just shuts the crag down. Is this the idea or not Dane? I really think we can do without the big meeting with all the "important people" present. Thats inviting trouble for the crag and is hostile to climbing.

So Dane, Who exactly comprises (titles, positions, how they were elected to such an esteemed position, etc.) the Dishman Rocks Resource Group? Never heard of it till now. Maybe I'll run for president of the group, or is it a tyranny?

I'll be there if it's a weekday after work. You know my feelings anyhow (live and let live) but I will try to attend.

An indicator of how big this problem is to the general population.

Dane, I'm not posting on your site till you start tolerating other people's thoughts and ideas. That's ridiculous what your doing to that forum. Im not typing for 15 minutes just to have it erased while all your commrades can blather on endlessly. Item 1. WHO THE F#@* IS MARTIN CASH? I've been climbing around here for some time and the climbing community isnt that big here. At least I've seen Steve Renyolds driving back from Chimney and he barely climbs but Martin Cash? What the hell have you ever done and why haven't I ever met you before? You spray so much that you must have a stack of routes under your belt or are you just a keyboard jockey bored at work? Which is it Martin, cause Ive never once seen you at the crags and Im at the crags a lot. Put up or shut up cause you're spraying about people that have done way more than you'll probably ever do. Hell, I bet you quit climbing before long anyway. You suck. Item 2. Grady Roberts is a friend of climbing. Thanks to him (not all the work cause there are more people than you all would like to know about) Dishman is a very user friendly and pleasnt place to climb. The majority of people who read this forum would never take their time and money to create climbs, and Grady did, and he did it in his style. Get off his back. Just cause you don't agree with it doesnt' mean you can destroy it. Go fight cancer or something worthwhile, but leave the crag alone. It's way better now than it used to be. Thanks Grady and the rest of the people who gave sanity to those routes and made new ones. Item 3. THE PHOTOS #1 That's Dishman. You don't see the bolted on holds, bolts, chalk, graffitti, route names, water tower, garbage, bum camp, camp fire burn, syringes, glass or condoms. Why, because that would tarnish Danes argument. Show it all next time Dane cause it does matter. #2 There are chipped holds at Dishman. I think they are better than bolt on holds because they are less visible but other people think differently. Besides, who am I to decide. I never went through the mountaineer program and just climbed at crags all over the world instead. No one really told me what to think so I've had to make it up on my own. Fill the chipped holds in and do the route, but if you can't do the move without them then remove your fill and slink away. Besides, you'll find the natural cruxes above far more challenging than where the chipped holds are. #3 That's actually a glued on flake that broke off. If you happen to try this route, you'll find yourself using it, Trust me on that one. #4,#5 Been around the Block is the name of the 12a that Grady Created on an unclimbable section of cliff at Dishman. Not shown here is the sea of graffitti circling the route name. Where's that at? Guess I'll have to take my digital out to the crag. (Actually I did today but I got caught up climbing and next thing I new it was dark and I don't have flash. Maybe next time that stupid climbing obsesssion won't get in my way) Before Grady people just tried the moves off the ground a couple of times then gave up. He built a good route here and who the F$&* am I to decide how he did it? It's a nice climb now even if you don't like to step on a gym hold and glue splotch. If you take down this hold, fill in the others, and remove the splotch then you'll have to take down holds and splotches at Smith, Mt Charlstone, Potasi, Riggins, Leslie gulch, Spring Mtn., VRG, Yosemite, American Fork, Logan, Ceuse, Ardeche River Gorge, Cuenca, El Chorro, Potrero Chico, Limestone crags around Canmore, Skaha, Frankenjura, Wild Iris, Sinks Canyon, Kootenay Canyon, Little Si, Riffle, and on and on. This goes for #5 too. Get to it. #6 Bolted on hold again.(The redundancy is killing me here. Dane are you trying to make it look as if there are more than 2 bolt on's here or what?) #7 Damn strait. Gear or bolts not mixed. Mixed routes are the red headded step children of the route world. They sit in obscurity cause NEITHER trads nor rads will climb them. #8 Grape ape now bolted. At least someone will lead it now. In my ten year climbing career, Ive never seen anybody lead a gear route at Dishman. Why would it start now? The crack is still there so have at it. Or chop the bolts on it and let another nice route languish in obscurity. #9 Same as #8 #10 Same as #8 #11 Route name in Sharpie. Miniscule compared to the graffitti that Dane doesn't show. Easily removed with a little alcohol. #12 Gartz + Spliffany is a route that I have never done at Dishman. I like how Grady gave it sort of an artistic flare although that Klingon graffitti detracts from Grady's artistic endevor. Judging by the extra time used to create the art, Gartz and Spliffany must be a stellar route that I will try next time I am there. #13,#14 Two more photos of Been Around the Block. Yawn, the redundancy is killing me yet once again. #15 Dane obviously has never led this route or he would know why the bolts are like this. This also gets rid of the single gear placement amongst the other 10 or so bolts that protect the rest of the route. Mixed routes are the hemmoroids on climbings' ass. #16 Climbed Rock 106 (visitors, that includes Steve R. and Martin Cash, don't miss this route cause it's one of my favorites) this evening. Dane, might have been a while since you been on this one or you would know that the route is over at this point. You pull onto the start of the slab to a no hands and clip these anchors. All your missing is that pine needle infested slab and who cares about that? #17 Klingon, the Force, and Grape Ape all have bolts next to them now. Do they protect the crack or are they just there for the extreme face climbing to the right of the cracks? I don't know but it sure makes those routes convienent to clip up now. #18 Another victim caused by the water tower above. Grady didn't build the water tower (I think, but he's an industrious charachter at times) so we can't blame him for the seepage problem that's been created. However I look at it as good training when you have to grab wet holds. Makes you hold on tighter and get stronger. I think the water tower is good too. See everbody at the clean up!!! Item 4. Dane whats up with the beef with Dave Stevens? He's the only one of you guys left that actually goes climbing all the time which I respect. He's the nicest guy anyone could expect to meet and your beefing with him cause he hangs out with us or something? I don't know if its as bad as you make it sound but lay off a bit and maybe listen to the guy. He's seen both sides and knows what's up.

"Main Crack 5.4. It's been ten years since you started at Mini. You've top roped and top roped and top roped some more. Finally you're ready. You put on your shoes and chalk bag and walk up the ramp. There's a hush amongst the awe struck spectators as you begin to free solo Main Crack. You actually make it to the top ! You're a Mini god now ! It comes somplete with, a toady entourage, and a permanent appointment at the busiest time each day to drive to Mini and solo Main Crack for the rest of your life" If that is not looking down your nose at low end climbers then what is ? Thats looking down at people who think they can fool the masses into beliving that their 5.4 solo (and the ones they stage later) is next to godlike. Be careful who you try to fool, one of those people might know more than you'd like them too.

Assumptions they are Dane. You are exactly right because I wasn't there the day that all the routes you guys did were done. No doubt I'm offbase on some of the routes. I totally belive you that you ground up lead Chicken Spread or The Force or Klingon, without prior inspection because I know that's your style and you were doing routes like that all the time. That was your game and you were good at it. But none of the routes were toproped prior to their FA? There were anchors there on a lot of stuff and I find it hard to belive it wasn't going on, and why not? You probably weren't but was anyone elese? But again my stament could be dead wrong on all accounts and I appolgize if that's true. Dane, there is a noticeable lack of well-protected moderate routes around here. You have to be able to climb at least 5.11 to have any selection of sport routes or you are toproping which does your head no good at all. If you don't get comfortable leading/falling on bolts there's a greater chance that you will never lead/fall on gear. Minne, Dishman, Post Falls, used to be considered "practice" crags so why not make them such? Let people try bolts, then gear, and then maybe Chimney is not so stagnate in the future and you get to see your seed grow so to speak?

Dane, You still haven't called me back yet and I don't know your phone #. You and I should talk face to face rather than in this public forum, mostly because I think we take things quickly typed a little differently than they actually mean. Also my guidebook was out after the majority or the retrobolting was done. Lots of people wished the routes were less scary to lead and the idea fermented for many years. My guidebook does not endorse chipping and if you will read the whole thing there are several little hints for people to stay away. Take a look at what I wrote for Unchained, the aid route at Dishman. That route is probably possible but there is one hell of a dyno off crap holds. I've tried it (I didn't bolt this one either Dane. In fact there are only 3 routes there with my steel in them. Hair of the Dog, Martinangelo's David, and the project to the right of Marinangleo) I think if you guys had chipped those routes back then we still might be at this juncture anyway. Say that I thought I could do the route without the chipped holds and I filled your chipped holds in and climbed the route, thus claiming it as mine, would you be angry or how would you feel about it now? Dane, there is no doubt in my mind that you are a bold climber and a good climber. I have heard many tales of the crazy stuff you have done. I have seen and been on some of your routes at Chimney and I know that you have more control of your emotions than I. I'll admit that I don't like facing death or perceived death in climbing situations. I have never trained my mind for it and rarely seek out such excursions. Most of the people that climb today will never realize your level of mental control because climbing in most areas has been sanitized. This is good and bad. Good because lots of people mean crags stay open (An intrest group that fights when stuff gets shut down). Bad becase more people means more ideas and things happen. For sure you and Larry have had your glory stripped from you because of the retrofit. Now people who go up the route won't realize how scary it was for the FA. They won't know what it takes mentally to do that route, they will now only know what it takes physically. A dimension is lost and I see that. But Dane you should realize that most of the people around here would never even lead your route at Dishman anyway because they lack the intensity you had. Hell, there's a lot of physically capable people that could climb at Dishman but they choose to toprope at Mini because they are scared to lead even on bolts. I would like to come to some sort of compromise with the bolt thing. I propose that we mark all the old bolt placements with a special type of hanger. Maybe even petzl glue ins since those last forever. We could put the old pins in that were replaced as well. This way one could lead the route as it was and see what it took to do the FA the way you quys did it. It could also be led as a sport route or just top roped. Everyone is satisfied and harmony restored. Anyway, give me a call. Marty

Blowboarder you are extremely fair today and your TOOL reference even cracked me up. I'll have you know that I really am not a big fan of chipping, but am honest enough to admit that it happens and can be benificial in certain instances, (and detrimental in other instances). I really won't be coming over soon but I might some day to do some of those trad routes in that certain canyon you guys seem so gaurded about. Maybe we'll meet. Since I've been Devils advocating a bit I'll bet our ethics aren't tooo far apart.

Marty, who bolted Grape Ape and The Force? Grady Roberts? Why were they bolted? I just can't understand how two easy crack routes with excellent protection that have been lead safely for 15 years, now need bolts. Mcash, you know more than I do. This is news to me. As far as these routes being led safely for 15 years I think you are a bit disillusioned. I've only seen top roping out there for 10 years straight. No one led before the bolts. It was just like Minnehaha. Most of the routes were run out and the protection sketchy at best. Why these 2 you speak of were retro'd.....I haven't a clue. Go ask Grady if he did in fact do it. "It was an interesting discussion last week between our group and the "regulars" at Dishman. I was quite astonished to learn that they liked the new Dishman, with all its ethical atrocities, better than the old. They did think the bolting of Grape Ape in the last few weeks was stupid though." "Astonished"? You're astonished to find out that not everyone thinks that risking injury and death after work is fun? People just want to go out and do a few routes. They don't want to get hurt or die next to Appleway Toyota. THAT IS FOR THE WILDERNESS. "It's just a shame things went so overboard at Dishman". Who are you to decide overboard? Give me your credentials to be able to make such a decision.

You guys have rock in the Okanogan? Where exactly is that rock cause Omak is only like 2 hrs from Spokane if you drive fast? I'll load my "Perfect Circle" up in the old Toyota and be there to check it out this weekend. Cheers, Marty. Also Drill and bolts or cams? You know I don't like to use both at the same time.

another good thing about the bosch is when you turbo charge it you only have to carry two 12V batteries instead of 3 with the 36V Hilti. Batteries are very heavy.

I have to appologize, but there was this 5.21c out at Dishman. It was like 5.11 through the first bolt. Then the next two bolts were like V23, but you had to clip in the middle of this ohh soo henious boulder problem, so actually it is was probably more like V24 I'd say. After the V24 (we'll call it that since you had to clip or hit the dirt at this point) it was only like 12d to the top, and we all know if your bouldering V24's, 12d is pretty easy so it would have been just a glory stroll to the chains. Well, I've only boulderd up around the V10 range, and only seen and felt V13 so I made some holds past the V24 and the routes only 12d or so now. Sorry, future mutant fly people, who will have evolved from us measly humans in the year 5019 for ruining your recreational activities. I'm going to hang myself, in total shame, in my basement now. Sorry again.

I and some friends bolted the routes there now. Ive tried them a bit and they seem to be like 12+ on up but never been back to try them. Weird season in the little cave.

For the 15th time. I didn't bolt any holds on. I didn't write the names on. I didn't retro the routes. I agree with the addition of the manufactured routes. Human ability is finite. If I'm wrong and it isn't, the guy without the limitation isn't showing up to Dishman with or without bolts, graffitti, trad lines, etc. He'll be living off a sponsors check in Europe or somewhere where they don't scrape and scrounge for climbs. And Dane, the route I manufactured (I don't know the others reasonings) merely connects the dots. Again, feel free to fill the pockets (6 tablespoons of anchor cement in my estimation) in and do the route. If you can't do the route this way then please leave the pockets the way they were. Others might like to try a "possible" route.

Again Dane, the stuff that you are talking of you should find those people and take it up with them. I don't fully agree with all of it myself. If it were pristine wilderness climbing (say chimney) I might care. However, Did you miss the giant concrete water tower at the top of the crag? Steve said himself that his almost been discharged on twice by the thing. Why don't you go tear the water tower down too? Also, go tell the Appleway Toyota dealership to turn down their paging system. Nothing more distracting than listening to that while climbing. You should put this into perspective. You read all of the book last night? I thought you might like it since you were only favorably spotlighted. Sorry, failed you again.

Dane, you're preaching to the choir on this website. I could have filled in you're poll results if you would have just asked me the questions. The majority of climbers have never done first ascents and most begining climbers are spoon fed by the Mountaineers or some wise old climbing sage (They've never came upon 15 ft of blank rock in the middle of a prospective route and had to make a decision). Of course this clouds their objectivity so we both know the poll results before its finished.

Dane, when you left me a message on my phone you forgot to leave your #. I scrolled through my recent calls and called back a 425 area code and left a message but I'm not sure it's you so call me back and leave your # if you see this before you get to town. I won't be able to meet you quys tonight because I'm headed out (like I do with 95% of my free time) to go climbing at Riggins (Ironically this is probably the chipping capitol of the world and I even ask what those guys were thinking sometimes)and won't be back till sunday night. I want to get your # so at least we can have a phone conversation and maybe hook up later. Now for the pictures: Picture 1. Like I said, great crag, but extremely urban. This aint no Buggabo baby. Picture 2: Funny thing about this gym hold is that I did the route without it cause I broke off the original litte footchip that was there. This new hold makes the crux much easier but whatever. Im not chopping it off cause I just don't really care. Someone who is less skilled than I obviously belives that they need it. Upon reaching the crag at first glance, and to the general public, the graffitti is far more of an eyesore. Take the hold off. They rated the route 12c (a bit soft in my opinion) so now maybe it will be true 12c. Picture 3: This is a bolted on river rock. It replaces a red piece of webbing that everyone pulled through the crux on. The route is 11a and if I remember correctly this is the crux as well. I think we can all agree that this is ugly (the graffitti is still far more of a problem and will continue to be untill the world quits spinning). Could this be a case where the chipped pocket would have been better? Remember, all the other holds exist its just this one spot. Now some of you are saying that it looks like there are some underclings below the bolt that you could jump to the jug up and left of the river rock. I think you may be right but in my estimation it would be about V11. That means somewhere in the range of 14a or so. Is the 14a climber going to enjoy this route as a great route? No, because the 5.10 climbing to and after the crux will seem an excercise in boredom and they will wish that they had just gone bouldering in the first place. However the 5.11 climber will love the route. It will be long and pumpy with no particularly difficult crux involved. The red tat. There was never any hoopla with the red tat. Why is it that all you traditionally minded folk like webbing so much? Any trad climbing I've done there's always copious amounts of multicolored webbing around rocks, trees, etc. and you ignore this. Hypocrites. After you guys get done with Dishman I want you to head up to Chimney with some disguised, Fixe brand chain and carabiner set ups so you can get rid of all the crappy webbing and have a descent belay as well. My heart weeps when my minds eye envisions the eysore that you all created. So many times my trad climbing experience has been ruined by pulling over the ledge to a rainbow nest of webbing. Boo hoo. A bit ridiculous? Yeah, the whole thing is. Go tell the guy that bags your groceries or fixes your plumbing about these travesties that we have been discussing. He'll think your an idiot. Dane, the reality of climbing is that the majority of climbers are not hardcore. Go to Smith Rocks and you won't be able find a bolted route 5.10 and below that isn't 3 deep. Go to 5.12 and you might wait in line. 5.13 (except that super popular one) you never wait. You are an extremist much like myself. Leave the people alone that climb at Dishman. They just want to go out after work, drink some beer, and climb a few pitches. None of them are out to repeat any daring feats of bold climbing or difficulty. I can accept that so why can't you? One more thing. Mixed climbs (one pitch sport climb types) are the stupidest ethic ever. 10 bolts 2 cams. 10 cams 2 bolts. One or the other. Getting bent out of shape cause your mixed route got retroed makes no sense.

But Rudy you'll have to admit that well be fixing a lot of chipped pockets and undoing a lot of glued holds. (I won't be because I'll be out climbing in my free time not messing with all this crap)

Hey guys. There's a big chance that the other parties have no clue that this chat is going on. And also it seems to me that only about 5 people are willing to coment anyhow showing just the level of interest at large.

Dane you said, "Instead of just taking your situational ethics to places like Deep Creek and China Bend (which you have developed and have the right to do as you like no matter how screwed up your ideas are) you decided how you climbed should be how everyone climbed. That is too bad." This is exactly the problem I have with your traditional ethics at Dishman and you don't seem to see it. You think that your way of climibng a route is how the rest of the people who go to Dishman should have to climb it for eternity. I say B.S. I don't want to climb in your style. If I fall I don't want to hit the dirt or even risk it. This is for the mountains not the crag behind De Ja Vu. Whith a bolted line you have a choice of style. The real question is why do you force me to climb these routes in your style? Ihate this cliche' but we'll have to agree to disagree. To me it's just rock. We blow it up daily to make highways, housing products etc. Its there for people to use so we should, and we do wether we like it or not. Take asphalt for instance. Spokane chipping tally as I know it: Dishman- 4 routes with a total of 6 chipped holds. Limestone crags- 2 routes with total of 3 chipped holds Deep Creek- 0 Post falls-0 Banks Lake-1 route with one chipped hold.(Steve, your friend Rick put this one up. It could have been Vince, I don't know. At any rate, Its a very good route anyhow) Minne-0 Is chipping bad? Yes and no. Ive climbed chipped routes that were really good and Ive done some that were tasteless. In Spokane we have a small portion of rock. I say climb it and quite walking past it wishing that it wasn't blank for 15ft. Someone can always come back and fill the holes in later if they think its possible. Who knows Dane, you might inspire a 15b at Dish after you're finished with your hany work? Wouldn't I look silly. Also Dane, since I don't want you to feel hypocritical after you get done filling in the chipped holds at Dishman, could you please fill in the ones at Banff, then go down to southern Idaho where I think all the routes are manufactured ,then keep going south to the limestone around Vegas. Theres a ton of those fake holds there. One of the crags is even nicknamed Mt. Chippingstone. Better head over to Yosemite and fix all the pin scars that probably help those two german guys free the routes on El Cap. Once you get done with the west you'll have to inspect the east. After that the real challenge begins: Europe. Take a boatload of cement there. And when you get back to Seattle, well you better take a closer look at Little Si. I suspect some Tomfoolery there too, but Im not sure you'll have to check. Funny thing about the north end of Dishman is that there was a series of chipped holds there before me and my ilk showed up. It was a mystery to us but Keith did say something to the effect that he and Dane made them. This is an ancient foggy memory but you have vindicated yourself Dane. I know now that you aren't one of us. Sharpie marker comes off easily with a touch of rubbing alcohol. Much easier than chalk. Mud works too. I also think you guys still don't get the fact that I didn't retrobolt the place. At the point that this happened I had my fill of Dishman. My feeling was "let everbody drape their stuipid 30ft toprope webbing setup over the cliff and toprope". I'd redpointed the routes that I wanted before this. I'm shouldering the responsibility of something I didn't do (which is fine). The people who retroed the crag are free thinking individuals. I might go there twice a year but some of these people, and others who aren't even involved in this conversation (innocent climbing bystanders), go to Dishman and clip bolts during the week. These are the people you are really hurting and not me. They're the ones that will be sorely disapointed to find out they got to start dragging in a rack (it will probably be the toprope set up). Ultimatly, it doesn't affect me but I do feel sorry for those folks. Dishman popularity will plummet when you guys get finished there. But you own the rights to the movie so shut it off. I've seen it before anyway. Steve, If you read the whole book you would have seen my thanks for the efforts of those who came before me. I don't personally know Larry I just thought it was stupid to chop bolts at Dishman. Im over it and could care less anymore. He's probaly mad at me now. Rick on the other hand really pisses me off. That guy took the bolts out of several of Scott Millers routes for no paticular reason. He ran around like he owned the place but had only put in as many routes as I and other people I know did. He wanted to write a guide but you cant sell a guide with only 30routes in it now can you? He wanted my route info but he wouldn't give me his? That's Jackassery at its finest. Dane should go out there and chop all the bolts next to cracks too. There's a chipped line as well so bring your cement. Steve, as far as being remembered 40 yrs from now you are fooling yourself. Here's the test (Assuming you've been to Smith Rocks) name your favorite 5 climbs there and tell me who did the F.A.? Can't right? And who cares anyway. Steve, just as I don't know your circle you don't know mine. How do you figure you know consensus? As far as graffitti removal Im not sure I liked your sandblasting method if this is the one that you speak of. It's a bit harsh on the rock. Puts years of wear on it in one blast (polished holds and faces). The graffitti seems to pop up later anyway. I do appreciate the effort. It seems like there should be some solvent out there that doesnt mess with the texture. My 2 cents. Oh please don't remove the rock 106. Blowboarder, I doubt Sharma will visit Dishman. If he does I'll personally fill in the holes if he wants. I'm 99% positive that he won't be able to do it after that so will I be permitted to reopen the pockets so us mortals can have some routes to do? W. 12 Sprauge sticker was in front of me when I was typing. My views are not theirs and they merely know me and I them. In fact, I suspect that they hate my ethics too but they just want my money. Dane, The routes with the pins was Sudden Impact not Magnum Force. There were two pins below the Greystoke ledge that I pulled out. there's no gear there now. I didn't mean that you hadn't repeated routes and didn't know grades. Im kind of a poor typist, sorry about any confusion.

Dane, sorry I almost forgot to answear your question again. The crack at Chimney rock that I was talking about was Uni. The moves on the route were very good but we had just rapped off the ledge above and saw it and took a top rope burn. By no means did I free climb the route on gear so I was just tossing out the approx. 12a grade. You might also find these days that the grades have suffered some inflation since your time or you were climbing harder than you thought. Repeating lots of routes gives one a better idea of what others belive a certian grade is. The Smokey on Fire isnt the crack that comes right out of the back of the overhang. Its the diagonal traversing rail. Sorry if I didn't answear all the questions. So many threads I haven't kept track. Dane, you and Keith made those holds on that route to the north end of the wall? Is that chopped a misspelled chipped? Dane, I pulled the pins out of Magnum Force with my hands. What do you deem the proper pro now that they are gone? If you remember, now its about 50ft run out at the crux without those. Also, nothing personal to anybody. Its just climbing.

For anyone who is reading this and need context, I will explain the Dishman crag as I see it. It's a 400-500 yd long, slightly overhanging (on the average)granite wall. There are 3 cracksthat run top to bottom and the rest is face climibng. There are about 30 routes. The rock is really good, and on the north end it is too good so as to be blank as it is in other spots on the south end. The crag avg's about 60ft tall. 5 minutes from downtown spokane you drive east, to the valley, and behind the mega car lot of Appleway Toyota/chev/whatever other brand or just take a right when you see the De Ja Vu on Sprague, then drive up towards the giant concrete water tower. You'll have to park at the illegal dump and be nice to the vagrants on the one minute approach in. Be careful of the wet graffitti paint at the base of the crag but do look for the Rock 106 graffitti because above it is a very great climb and a classic in Spokane (If someone defaces this Rock 106 graffitti, it is 1000 times worse than chopping bolts) This is hardly an alpine environment like some wish it to be but it is a very cool crag and one that I would reccomend to any visitor. It is the best granite crag in Spokane (I would only recommend Minnehaha to an enemy). # Dane, you haven't climbed the routes since they have been rebolted. I think you should reclimb them on lead now and see how many bolts you end up clipping before you call them "overbolted". You or I might be surprised. You might or might not be as immortal as you used to. #2 Who owns the rock? I don't, Dane doesn't, Larry doesn't, and now way Steve does cause he seems to just have found out that the place was retrobolted. That happened about 3 years ago and that stupid bolt on rock has been there for at least a year (dont forget it was a red tat before that for 2-4 yrs). Steve your lack of concern/attendence is pathetic. Back to the issue of rock ownership. Just because Joe Blow did some route 20 yrs ago in some style really means nothing because the future dictates what will happen in the future. The future owns the rock. Spokane climbers of 2000 decided that they would rather clip bolts up to a set of chains than do it in your old style. It may have been done out of fear of the routes or it may have been done just so they were a bit more convienient to climb. I dont know but you can ask them. 40 yrs from now they will do the same or possibly even return to your style and ignore most of the bolts or chop them. Maybe the car lot in front of Dishman buys the land and shows cars in front of the wall? Who knows but it wont be up to Dane or I to decide, so today's actions are somewhat inconsequential because none of us own the wall. bottom line: Art on the canvas of another. # I agree with the way Dishman is now. You can go there and go climbing. Its fun. You don't have to break your ankle or die at some crag in the middle of industrial Spokane. That is for the mountains. Chimney rock/Selkirks will never get bolted cause its too far to hike tools in and its glacially polished so the face hold don't exist either. Go there and get scared and feel like Dane/Larry/Steve does/used to. See what its like to get 30ft off a crappy tcu. But at Dishman if you are 30ft off a tcu then your probably at the top near the water tower. Hopefully the crag vandals will have left you a set of anchors to get off and clean your route on. # A rant from me: When I showed up at Dishman in the early 90's and still thought that my rope would only hold 7 falls, (like it said on the packaging) the 5.9 was run way out but the 12a (the hardest route there and the time) was bolted as a sport route? Logically, the bolt spacing should have been similar to the 5.9, or more run out, possibly a solo, but it wasn't close to the same. It was the opposite because these guys were begginers at the 5.12 level. They should have shown the same respect that they showed themselves, as begginers, and protected the 5.9's, 5.11's like the 5.12. Why is it that all the begginer routes are runout and scary and the hard routes are bolted real well (There's pro on Slave Labor and I think I might do it all on natural gear and chop all the bolts. Then only someone as great as me will be able to attempt the route. Won't I be a hero? They'll write books about me and I'll get a Nike contract, etc, etc.). This is stupid and the trend should be reversed. The class of 2000 did just that. # Dane, you climbed for adventure and to test your nerve. I respect that. You should respect those who just want to go climb for fun. Why are you or your purposes greater than them? None of those routes have been degraded. You can still plug gear and run them out at your leisure. Leave those people alone. # Dane, I'll bet that if you were my dad when automobiles first came out in the early 1900's, you would probably buy a car. Except one day I would want a ride to the candy store but you would make me ride the old mare. I would ask why? You would tell me "cause its more gallant, asthetic, a little dangerous, and thats the way I used to have to do it. Uphill both ways in 500degree temperatures" More climbing less chopping since its 95degress today More swimming less chopping

#1 most important thing to remember..... I didn't retrobolt the routes at Dishman. At one time I did add bolts to Touch of Grey and Firestone but they were flattend and torn out long before the crag was bolted the way it is now. #2 Dane I have no beef with you. If you put the route up you can do whatever you like of course. I do have a beef with the guys who probably have never been to the crag, jumpin in on the bolt choppin wagon. Bunch of retards. They could care less about the climbs they just want to be a part of something. #3 You are exactly right about the Simpletons walk up. My hardest route today will be a warm up for some in 10 yrs. if it isn't already. I didn't mean to demean your ascents and in fact I realize how difficult and scary some of them were. I respect that. Most people don't. The only problem is that 20 yrs from now, nobody will recognize you or I for any particular climbing achievment or route that we put up. #4 As far as asking, I didn't even know you were in the country till you posted on this site this spring. Last thing I heard about you was about 10 yrs back when Keith Wallace said he had climbed with you. Sorry, but again I didnt retro your routes and Im sure there was no ill intent, its just that nobody sees you around the crags anymore. #5 When would be a good time to replace all the old 1 inch bolts that are in Dishman and Minne? Should they ever be maintained at all? Should my generation and the future have to ask to replace an old crappy bolt? I don't know. As far as my routes are concerned I would like to give the green light right now. Add a bolt if you feel you need to. #6 Essentially the north end of Dishman has chipped holds on the routes. There are places that the rock has a few more features than the glass on your screen but not much more. I am guilty of putting holds on my route in that area. Anyone is welcome to fill in the holes provided that they can climb the route without them. You would impress me to no end, but otherwise forget about destroying my route and the others. They are good rockclimbs and add great challenges to the Dishman Crag. As for the rock that is bolted on the wall, it used to be a bright red tat (piece of webbing) that everybody pulled past the blank section on. Bright red tat? River rock? Both look bad but thats how the first ascent was done. Maybe that should be respected? Or should we get another piece of webbing or drill a pocket? Maybe we should just sit home. #7 As far as being overbolted I have a challenge for Steve and Dane. Us three go out climbing at Dishman. Steve, you and Dane start leading routes. Any bolts that you clip during a succesful "redpoint" stay in the wall. If you don't "redpoint" the route then the bolts stay. The ones that you don't clip we chop out but I get the hangers of course. Also, any route I free solo, the bolts stay in. This way I couldn't accuse Dane of working the piss out of the route before poorly protecting the first ascent. (Dane, I don't know if you practised this style of FA in the past. It seems to be an anomoly of the era and really sucks for people who try it later). Steve would feel justified in the bolts that he was chopping, and I could get some free hangers. Everybody's happy. #8 MCash, when have I advocated bolting any trad lines? Where is that in here? Hello!!! Did I mention that I never retroed any of the routes at Dishman? #9 I didn't retrobolt any routes I only put in a few new ones. I didn't bolt that stupid rock on the wall either. I liked the red tat better. It felt more traditional to me. Dane, I have no beef with you and respect you, Larry, and the others that were pushing it at the time. You guys were out there doing it and I appreciate what you did. Thanks. #11 Klenke, one man's 5.2 is another man's 15b. Keep up the good fight #13 Crowbars, hammers, whats up? Have you all heard of a wrench? And if you must chop please send all bolt hangers to the address that I posted above. Thanks Dane, Who chopped the 3 bolts that were on the route, Hair of the Dog and why? They seem to have been in odd placements that would have made it hard to clip. More climbing, less chopping