Cpt.Caveman

Well if the deforest service is allowing them in there then they are to blame and that was the entire point. It doesnt matter who owns the land it's on if it fucks up the wilderness. They seem concerned about bolting in some places but a nice shitload of crap in the wilderness is ok. It may be true. But I have seen more hikers leave trash than I can imagine in a lot of places.There's no facts on it that I have seen. I admit that it can be true from your argument but to back it up with facts is a real argument. I have none. If they are not enforcing regulations in the backcountry how do multiple folks here get the fines for it at the roadside. I understand there is a difference between the groups and that is not what I am arguing that one is more respectable than the other. It's all Deforest service to the public's eyes. It's not seamless. Nobody cares when they are getting harrassed. It's all the same govt to anyone out there. Nobody resents any good work they do. But lets talk about where the major faults are Very True if you get caught. What's to get "caught" if you really didnt do anything that bad? Educating people is ok but to harrass them is different. There are better ways of dealing with this. If they want to enforce what the public needs do it. JUST DO IT RIGHT. Consider the theft and other issues as a priority if we want to charge people to camp AND park back there. There is no sense that the Deforest Service cares about anything other than collecting money. This sends a message to the public People want results that are reasonable. Like I mentioned before- nobody resents a respectable honest person working for them. We all just judge them on personal experiences. There is no real excuse for harrassment if it is not warranted. There are no lies here on my side. I understand you have some insight. Dont be too self righteous since you have worked for them.

Erik Jon SK Pakistani dude Dave Schuldt Harry Pi mtnrnger Ade Tex

Wise words to live by.

Take some pics of some cc.com sport climbers doing the latest 5.13 belayed by the met on the internet partner (whoever trask for instance) in the right light and you have a chance. Make sure it's 5.12 R and shit. Maybe I should mail this thread to both mags to let them know how out of touch with some climbing groups they have become. Personally I saw that alpine magazine the other day and thought it was ok. It was a little recycled. Whatever though... It was still "ok" to read but I aint buyin it.

I dont support it for many reasons I WONT LIST THEM ALL. I think that most of the use comes from people impacting more than climbers. I know its only an opinon without facts. I also dont approve since the Deforest Service promotes landing helos for damming procedures and introduces waste in the backcountry (namely in between upper and lower snow lakes). Obviously there will be plus and minus to this as well as arguments. Another is that the Deforest Service harasses people just for day climbs in the AL wilderness there when these same people forget to "voluntarily" fill out permits. Park your car there you are a victim. Another note is that I don't believe if I pay my taxes that I should be TAXED again for using land that I already am paying fees for. Also I think the Deforest Service is over equipped even now. IF you see some of their vehicles they consist of multiple moving cameras and hig tech gadgetry that is not necessary. IF they want to put gadgetry to use then they might start catching the criminals stealing out of our cars and campgrounds. However it does not pay to catch criminals It does pay to catch "violators" of parking and trail laws. I guess a 4 year old could do that Catching criminals takes effort, investigations and some balls if they are dangerous. Those are some real negatives to doing a law man's job now are they not

So who knows about the bolted route on Garfield? I want to climb the thing. Where does it start?

I'd buy a round. To fall over drunk is a noble cause

til midnight. just called....

last time I checked lisa showed in redmond and worked in smellevue. Dwayner I'm not tryin to hijack anything. If you already claimed a spot just send the link to me and I will consider your argument like a drunkard gentleman BTW if you show in Redmond 1st mickeys is on me. Promise!

It seems like every other week it's at one of those 2 locations. Considering I went to multiple where I was not sure if they were in one or the other it's just really funny. I like the Celtic Bayou. It's not super high class but it is RIGHT next to the freeway and it's not too bad. NO SMOKING- did I mention NO SMOKING. If you smoke then you can walk outside. I am a smoker too so don't whine smokers Plus the food aint too bad. If you feel real ghetto 7-11 is next door and you can sneak in 40oz mickeys to drink on the porch (Dwayner) Just make sure you dont drink until you show so you feel ready for a longer night. And if your name is Jens,Cascadeclimber, or Danielpatricksmith then show the fuck up!

sidebar rocks.

Uhuh Uhuh! Right on Fromage. At least you were out there bashing some ice down I think I'll pass on any ice in the near future since I am spoiled.

my dog whines, barks, chases goats and other wild animals, shortcuts switchbacks, shits on the trail and all designated campgrounds, intimidates other dogs including fights, and chews on peoples' unattended packs. If I was to say that what could you really do but whine. There is no perfect animal. The owners are responsible for all actions. Some of the remarks above are well- full of shit. eric8 basically what I am saying is that dogs are not really the major contributors to people cutting shortcuts to switchbacks. People are. It's all common sense and if you dont have any then well then... Expect people to hate you and your animal.

On my 5th pair of them. If I had any issue they would have got dumped long ago. A good shoe for any one person takes in many factors. i'm not going to argue your decisions and I dont really see how you can argue mine for that matter. Never had stretching problems. They do wear out quicker than I like but they resole fine and are way cheaper 30$ or more than many other like it.

Fairweather has some nice photos. Thanks for sharing.

Very nice!! What idiots would attempt that bush and choss infested 810 butt ?

enchantments are magical. go there. I dont support the permits but if you prefer to get one then enjoy!!

I have no avatars. Tehehehe

I see these type of tracks where dogs are not allowed all the time.

Hahaha. Were done? Yeah I never do read most of what's posted here. Do you feel beat now

Oh but it was my friend. That's where you continually strayed off subject from the beginning. It's that part about defending against the truth you keep having the problem with.

Ade finally admitted he'd be soup sandwich. Took him several pages. As far as the Iraq war- we funded it with our troops. I suppose that is more funding than we need to speak for. You keep taking things as insults because that is the only defense you know to thwart the truth. I still think it's hilarious what an ass you made out of yourself at that meeting beating your chests about what great himalayan climbers you are. How can a fact stated about the truth be determined an insult if it's true.

Ade here's some stats to boil over. It appears the uk was not in superior stats here: WWII Statistics Following is a basic list of some of the statistics of World War II Battle of Britain Statistics will appear shortly Cost of the War World War II was by far the costliest war in terms of material and human resources expended. Three quarters of the world's population took part. That is 1.7 billion people in 61 countries. 110 million people were mobilised for military service. More than 50% of them were from only three countries. 22 to 30 million from the USSR, 17 million from Germany and 16 million from the USA. The largest number of people on duty at any one time were: Country People on duty USSR 12,500,000 USA 12,245,000 Germany 10,938,000 British Empire & Commonwealth 8,720,000 Japan 7,193,000 China 5,000,000 Due to the war's vast and sometimes chaotic nature, most statistics are only estimates. Most agencies concentrated on the war effort rather than keeping statistics. Logistics were so vast that some governments could not keep control. Most resorted to manipulation of figures and reporting, for political and propaganda purposes. A rough tally has been reached on the total cost of the war. It makes startling, grim and sometimes horrific reading, even by today's standards. In terms of human cost: Country Total Dead Allied military & civilian 44,000,000 Axis military & civilian 11,000,000 Total military deaths in Europe 19,000,000 Total military deaths in Japan 6,000,000 USSR military 13,000,000 USSR civilian 7,000,000 China military 3,500,000 China civilian 10,000,000 Germany military 3,500,000 Germany civilian 3,800,000 Poland military 120,000 Poland civilian 5,300,000 Japan military 1,700,000 Japan civilian 380,000 Yugoslavia military 300,000 Yugoslavia civilian 1,300,000 Romania military 200,000 Romania civilian 465,000 France military 250,000 France civilian 360,000 British Empire & Commonwealth military 452,000 British Empire & Commonwealth civilian 60,000 Italy military 330,000 Italy civilian 80,000 Hungary military 120,000 Hungary civilian 280,000 Czechoslovakia military 10,000 Czechoslovakia civilian 330,000 USA 407,300 Estimates for the total dead are some 60 million. 25 million of these are military, 35 million civilian. 5 million were Jews killed in the Holocaust. Economic Statistics It has been estimated that the war cost $1 trillion. Remember, this is 50 years ago! It was more expensive than all other wars put togester. The USA spent the most money, an estimated $341 billion, including $50 billion for lend-lease supplies, of which $31 billion went to Britain, $11 billion to the Soviet Union, $5 billion to China, and $3 billion to 35 other countries. Germany was next, with $272 billion; followed by the Soviet Union, $192 billion; and then Britain, $120 billion; Italy, $94 billion; and Japan, $56 billion. Except for the USA., however, and some of the less militarily active Allies, the money spent does not come close to being the war's true cost. The Soviet government has calculated that the USSR lost 30 percent of its national wealth, while Nazi exactions and looting were of incalculable amounts in the occupied countries. The full cost to Japan has been estimated at $562 billion. In Germany, bombing and shelling had produced 4 billion cu m (5 billion cu yd) of rubble. The words "Lest we forget" seem quite poignant now

Face it ade it really boils back to your ass would be german territory if it wasnt for us. I'll take your previous comments as a gracious thanks. I'm glad we could "assist" with a majority of the funding and troops during Iraqu war last time too. It's obvious you'd rather reference british history all day long. I think I know how it really went down.