Peter_Puget

A year or so ago I wrote quite critically of the Exit 38 area. My concern was the impact of land managers seeing 38 as a "model" of what climbers impact on an area will be. There has undeniably been a significant climber impact to the "38" region. I do not think that it would be much of a leap to think that a land manager would say "hey climbers have 38 which has been proclaimed as the best sport area in WA by many advocates so no bolts here at this new area. They already have 38." To me putting all our eggs in one basket is at best short sighted. It is even more of an egregious error when it is obvious that many consider 38 to be a good place for a workout but not really a super duper area. At the time nobody seemed to consider this fear of mine to be valid yet I am struck that Richard, a climber, has been pushing this view. Hyper development anywhere has ramifications everywhere. Because we personally prefer one area over another is hardly a good reason to limit bolting anywhere. One man's meat is another man's poison. Second Unrelated Issue: As far a retro-bolting goes I personally am of conflicted views on this. A onsight lead of a runout route generally should be respected. Think for example that old stand by Bachar Yerian or even You Asked For It. But imagine Mr. Bachar just running wild all over slabs essentially blocking out the future development of well protected easier routes. This would be nothing to be respected especially given the scarcity of virgin rock. Of course in this example I am assuming that the traditional onsight ascent is made. Most often here in Washington this manner of ascent is not used. The tradeoff I believe one makes in abandoning tradition is that the FA assumes the responsibility of making a well-crafted route. Anything else is simply goofy. ANY preinspection or knowledge of a route destroys anything of the traditional FA glory. While it is arguably permissible to remove bolts from a botched route why isn't it equally arguable to add of change bolt locations from a botched route? I say clearly it is! But yet..... [ 09-24-2002, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Hey Dwayner - You used those same lines on me! Get some new material! PP

Mr. Trask - Sex is great! But Allison transcends the vulgar joys of the flesh.

Sk - From your reply I think that you are not getting my point but that it is my in inability to articulate well.

SK - It is really quite simple those I call "friends" tend to care about my feelings and I tend to care about theirs. Since my friend's actions were causing me discomfort I was confident he would want to know it. So I told him my thoughts, we discussed it and he thought I was goofy but modified his actions because he realized I was being sincere. And guess what! We still climb together today! Although not as often as there are a few thousand miles between us. I would hope all our friends are so available to all of us. As a sidebar I would just say that over 20 years ago a tearful and shaking woman came up to me as I was bouldering and said:"your friend fell." My friend was merely a person I had a short conversation with at the base of a climb in a popular park in CA. I went off by myself and he started up his climb only to fall to the ground from near the top. He survived but was seriously injured. But I am afraid we have moved far afield from TG's initial post on this thread. PP

My soloing example was only to show how I view my responsibilty to the "unknown" other. Dru - Sometimes and in some areas soloing just isn't proper. Sk - Not sure what your post was replying to. The person I advised not to solo was a friend climbing with me at the time the advice was given. Let me add that I have soled a bit myself and I would and have chosen to do so in a manner that conforms to the advice I gave to my friend. Having seen a crumpled body at the base of a cliff I know some of the effects. You're right I know little about you. But I do know you seem to think it proper to solo a route after someone has expressed discomfort with you doing so. Simply put to solo so trivial or not so trivial route if I was causing distress to others is something I would not choose to do. This would be especially true if the route in question was something I had "dialed'. PP

I know it is overused but I have to write it: "Irresponsible is like porno; I know it when I see it." Sometimes I even like it but not all the time and in all situations. I do not recall being "upset" but do remember thinking the advice was irresponsible. In a given context many factors might contribute to something being deemed irresponsible. One important factor is the appearance of authority the person uttering the advice has or lacks. In my perspective TG has usually acted with more restraint and has offered more real advice on this site than many others. In view of this I felt his advice was more likely to be taken and thus in this case irresponsible. Had a goofy sprayer written the same thing I would not have responded. Not wanting to look back at the original thread, I will simply state that as I remember it a frustrated climber was suffering from nerves leading and was seeking a remedy. TG suggested a remedy that worked for him. To me advising a unknown person who is becoming scared to the point of failure on stuff they should be able to lead to solo easy stuff is simply irresponsible. Whether we like it or not our advice and actions do have unintended consequences. Back in the 70s I had a partner who use to solo all the time. We got into many arguments when I would ask him to stop if others were around. My reasoning was that he was being a jerk to risk falling in front of others who had no say in his actions. If we were by ourselves, I let him solo away. As with posting advice the context was everything.

Back to back is the way to go. Ah - "the Soul and Barbed Wire" always thought that would be a good route name. PP

DFA - I'll take that beer. Gulag is easy try:A la Recherche Du Temps Perdu. Much more of a challenge. I'll let you know when I am at Smith.

Well part of the weekend All good things have to end I guess

And by the way Cavey is a complete liar - he really can climb! Don't believe his I hang alot line. Cavey can climb and even more important he is strong enough tocarry all the beer in!

You should take the clue _ Axes are aid! Mountaineering is aid climbing GO CORDLESS! Its the spirituality, beauty, power, mental challenge of climbing distilled without the BS.

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Add a post here if you actually called or did something to help catch these evil bandits. Please keep spray out! [ 09-20-2002, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

OK LUCKY write a well worded explanation of what your experiences have been and post/send it to the links below. Encourage others to complain. Call King County Sherrif and ask them what has to be done to get something to happen. Come on CC.comers you can either spray on here or engage in more advanced spraying by actually complaining to somebody that might be able to do something. State Parks This is info line call this to get Ollalie Park number I tried but was put on hold. 360-902-8844. If someone gets it please post it here. Sherrif North Bend Substation 206.296.0612 Email King County Here request an email reply let them know you will post the reply on CC.com: http://www.metrokc.gov/comments/comment.cfm seattle times outdoor message board: http://boards.nwsource.com/mb/user/thread.html Some B Boards: http://mtncommunity.org/ http://www.eskimo.com/57Epc22/CC/Bboard/wwwboard.html WTA.org Seattle Times NW Weekends Editor Brian Cantwell 206.748-5724 BCantwell@Seattletimes.com [ 09-20-2002, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Just a follow up: I purchased something found out it wasn't the right size. Sent it back Saturday and the replacement arrived Thursday.

Only Flick read this: Flick for insults and trolls to work they must have at least the appearance of the truth. Your posts remind me of a young child claiming someone is a "poo poo" head. The insult just is ineffectual but does reflect on the mental development of the one hurling the insults. Please try harder! For two vastly different online styles that might help to "show you the ropes" I would check out Cavey's barrage against Lambone or any of Donna Top Step's initial postings. PP [ 09-18-2002, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Flick - leave cavey outta this! And I sense a slight negative tone to your posting. I say free yourself from those simple and BS stereotypes forced on us by Cosmo or that scoundrel Versace. Physical beauty comes in all shapes and sizes. Don't limit yourself to one colr when there is a whole rainbow. Plus it's just not nice to be such a bore. PP [ 09-18-2002, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

quote: Originally posted by OfficeSpace: Ability is no substitute for character and personality. Now what the hell is this supposed to mean? As far as I have seen, heard and read she has no ability, no personality that I would appreciate(even if she thinks gu is spunk)and as far as character is concerned...well. The board speaks for it self...non. Character is developed in the early stages of childhood and I think she missed that lesson. You must be pretty vacant Mr Space. Why on any given day one of her witticisms will "pop" into my head and provoke a smile or perhaps a chuckle or two. As far as ability it remains to be seen if you can even ascend our latest project!!!! Now as far as your character, attacking a young woman for shame! For shame! Please act in a way Tim and Jon could be proud of!!!! Don't be the apple that spoils the bunch! Cavey - I bet any rope you're hangin' on gets pretty thin! PP And did I mention she has good taste in music too?

Cavey - I can attest to the fact that Allison is very well read and a witty and engaging conversationalist! In short she The "attitude" person I do not know. PP Plus did I mention she was cute?

I know it's a long shot but..... Anyone have any beta on the East Wall route on Higher Cathedral?

Ah Jon I am on to you and Tim - This is really an post-graduate study to see how silly you can get people to act. I bet we have exceeded your wildest expectations and I know you will both graduate with honors and go on to be marketing masters!!

quote: Originally posted by richard noggin: The sport climbs are just too thin for cool sport moves. Don't you think there should be at least some trad only areas in Washington .You will not see sport climbers coming to the columns or the bend for sport test pieces. Even myself I think the drill should be left out of some areas and this is the one I would pick. The bend and the columns has real crack climbing, you don't just plug in gear and face climb. It will be a bummer if a new guide book comes out and I like the bridge being out (less people)Love it when the rattle snakes run everyone out of the crag (now thats ball'z climbing) With a post name like mine how much value can you put on my opinion You sir are one of the best here at cc.com! Funny how you see it that way as I LOVE crack climbing but think that basically the crack routes in the Tieton on average aren't that good! (originally wrote suck which was hyperbole) Not that there aren't good some routes but I have climbed most of the routes at Royal Columbs and to me the best ones are the bolted ones. I tried to think of better sport routes than Price (I meant at the same difficulty) and couldn't come up with a clearly superior route in WA. Honestly I couldn't find its equal. By the way thin = good! What would be bad is if every three feet there was another bolt route! But I don't think this is the case. Actually some of the routes there have pretty porr (originally wrote shitty pro for routes I assume were not placed onsight & onlead. eg: Stress Management would have been much cooler with a few more bolts. I think that guy is 5.10 too! PP [ 09-17-2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

quote: Originally posted by richard noggin: The Royal columns and the bend suck for sport climbing ,It's like vertical slab. I climb a lot of sport but I wish they would not put sport climbs up there it's a stellar crack area . Don't be dis'in orange sunshine or Inca roads a little hard for the grade but classic none the less. The river is up for the rafters you can cross at the cable or 40 minute hike from the bend parking lot. Not trying to insite a flame PP just my opinion [/QB] When have I flamed anyone for honest opinions! Both the routes Andy mentions that are sport at the Royal Columns have been around for along time. Price is without a doubt a good climb and at least as steep as the average Smith route. Do you really think it is a shitty climb and if so, give me some better sport routes of the same grade in WA. As far as ratings go Yakima seems pretty fairly rated although those at Lava Point seem a little inconsistant.

Bored so here are few of my comments on Andy's recomendations: Inca Roads (classic 5.9 finger crack) I remember this as being a bit larger than fingers and only so so. The route to the left is a fun TR or lead. Orange Sunshine (.10b gently overhanging fingercrack) Sandy on top. Not really sure why people like this guy so much. Paul Maul (sustained .10c fingers) I Hated this one. Not really jamming at all as the crack has weird constrictions. Price of Complacency (.11b overhanging arete, sport) Stellar route! Excellent rock. Steep too! Morning After (.12a arete, sport, great finish) Lots of thin edging! Good route. The Bend: Salmon Song (.10a roof) Rock quality only so-so Pure Joy (.10c fingers, balance) Much harder lead than the rating would suggest. Off balance is right! Good route. Ambient Domain (.10c stemming) Hard to place pro on this guy. Crack a bit grubby. Maybe it is me but I wouldn't recomend this one. Backed off 10 years ago and did it a couple ago and hated the experience. I felt it was a much harder lead that Trag. Hip. Tragically Hip (.11b/c true arete liebacking, 1988 bolting style corrected in 2000 [i.e., I retrobolted it]) Retrobolt made this climb much more fun. The Cave (all sport): Some of the long routes here are great. My fav is the one that goes over the roof near the top. Lots of climbing in only a few feet. I bet in a few years they will be grease fests tho so go do them now. Rainbow Rocks (all sport): Black Celebration (.11a) OK crux near bottom. Short. Ice Cream Girls (.11d, exceptional) Best route I have done in the Tieton! One of the best sportos in WA. Lava Point (all sport): Great views! The routes are short. Honeycomb Buttress (all sport): Honeycombs (.11a, unique) Fun climb! As are most of the routes on this face Land Down Under (.11c, unique) Awkward. Can be climbed in the rain. Anaphylactic Shock (.11d/.12a, unique) Second(?) bolt was a desparate clip with groundfall potential if I remember correctly. Otherwise good route. Top gets wet in rain. Wildcat: Wildcat Crack (long .10c fingers) Can do this climb with little real jamming. Good pro. Colonnade (.11a/b, mixed, finger crack & bolts) If this is the route (trad bottom and bolted top to left of Wildcat)I am thinking of its. Bring thin stuff! Tieton