mattp

I agree, Bug, and I only hope that Obama can lead the Democrats to getting their heads out of their you know where's. They've forgotten that they actually had a platform and could actually stand for something ever since Gingrich kicked their butts.

If you think it is inevitable, what are we accomplishing by remaining there? The contractors are making a butt-load of money and if you are into corporate welfare that is a good thing, and maybe our oil companies will secure some deals that will survive a civil war. What else? Are you hoping we can help strenghten the "good guys" in Iraq so maybe they will be more likely to win the inevitable civil war?

I am guessing that we are likely to see some kind of civil war there whether we leave now or gradually withdraw. I think we may yet be able to avoid that, however, and that is why I'm not quite as adamant as I think Tvash is that we should leave today.

I wasn't implying that there would only be two choices. I was trying to flush out Bill's point a bit: ----- I don't think "impose" is too strong of a word. As I understand it, most Iraqi's want us to leave. The Iraqi government wants us to set a date when we will leave, though they don't want us out of there today. If we really wanted them to work it out "on their own," we'd leave. Neither present candidate is talking about it much but the military people have said that we in fact cannot maintain the level of deployment that we have at present. We WILL be witdrawing troops - at least to some extent. I suspect that you, I, MK Porwit, and Billcoe would largely agree about the considerations as to when and how fast that should take place (Tvash maybe not) but I bet we disagree more about the prognosis.

That is what I was asking. And I'd agree with you if I thought that there was any chance that we can actually get out of there "on a footing/premise that we'll never have to go back in again." By that I assume you mean that you would hope we can impose some kind of stability and a government at least half-way friendly toward our interests in the region though I realize you are critical of our having gone in out of "lust for oil." My own sense of it is that the war is a waste. Dollar for dollar, I'd rather see money wasted on infrastructure or social programs here at home than spending it on infrastructure and the big social program of trying to impose "democracy" and "stability" in Iraq.

What's up with the Republicans trying to steal the entire election. You down with that? The ranting and raving about Acorn is a cover up for purging voters from voter roles to suppress vote. Is anybody but me concerned about this? We've seen great efforts toward vote suppression undertaken in the last two presidential elections, and it looks as if it is continuing. Isn't purging voter roles far more likely to influence an election outcome than Acorn's registering Mickey Mouse or signing up the telephone book?

I'm with you there, Bill. I pointed this out at the time - that the pipeline prospect may have been at least influenced our war plan if not been a more important goal than catching Bin Laden. The conservatives on this board scoffed at such a notion. I don't understand your last post, though.

Again, Sobo, you have declined to answer my question. I didn't ask if you supported existing welfare programs or their expansion. That is the question you have answered twice. I asked if you had the choice between a dollar going to the Iraq war or that same dollar going toward healthcare or welfare, where would you rather it went. A or B. Iraq or Social Programs. You made it clear in your first post on this topic that you'd rather send that dollar elsewhere besides welfare. I get that. But are you SO against welfare that you actually support Iraq war spending more than social programs?

That wasn't my question, Sobo. I specifically listed wellfare because I know that many folks get all bent out of shape by anything given that label. I have seen Obama make no proposal to increase any traditional wellfare program but, even if he did, wouldn't you rather see a dollar spent in that fashion (say, an increase in the TANF benefit for needy children) rather than in continuing the war in Iraq?

The one with the diagonal banding is Del Campo. The face pictured, the NW Face, is in my opinion one of the best easy ski mountaineering day trips I've done that are close to Seattle. The time to go is as soon as the Mtn Loop Highway opens to the bottom of that Sunrise Mine road. From the notch at upper right, there is a short and mildly exciting pitch to the summit.

I don't know what DNC talking points Fairweather refers to, but I just listed the first three of those Republican slogans that I'd like to see abandoned forever. I agree with some of Billcoe's skepticism that Obama is really going to change everything, but would't it be a step in the right direction, Bill, if he simply traded cuts in military expenditures for increases in social programs? I agree that the deficit is a huge problem, but wouldn't you rather have money spent on healthcare and welfare than the Iraq war?

Aha. You missed the fairly good (diagonal) last pitch of Gastroblast/The Kone which is all on clean rock with cool features.

Yup. And for access to the reservoir itself, they propose to continue to allow boating but in order to do so they will deactivate and regrade about 4 miles of road and replace it by reconstructing a mile or so of road switch-backing down a steep hill, with roadbed that has in places nearly filled in and has overgrown for fifty years so it looks like woods not road to somebody like you and me. This will include removal of the bridge over the South Fork of the Sulton River (just short of where we turn off the "South Shore Road" to start in the spur road being discussed here) and they will remove many more culverts. Dru and Rat are at least partly right: the presentation I attended focused on the fact that they just didn't have the money to upgrade the road to comply with new fish standards, but the overall tone of what I heard suggested a real hostility toward recreation.

What's up with the Republicans trying to steal the entire election. You down with that? Ranting about Acorn is a cover up for purging voters from voter roles to suppress the vote.

The present plan is to cut the road back to Olney Pass so the trip to Static Point is only going to get longer. Meanwhile, there is a coming Issaquah meeting regarding the recreation rules for DNR lands in general. 7 p.m., November 5, 2008 at the King County Library Systems Service Center, 960 Newport Way in Issaquah. The rules: text of rules Some info: DNR Site This meeting has nothing to do with Static Point in particular, but recreational management policies are being revised in general. Changes include what I believe are greater restrictions on campfires on DNR lands and there are new rules regarding trail building or maintenance. The public comment period runs from October 15 to November 10, 2008.

That's what I'm talking about, Fairweather! If your cockamanie ideas are cast on the garbage heap, I'm dancing! I don't honestly think we're there yet, but I'm hoping Obama is right: "yes we can."

I bet the spur toward Static Point received NO maintenance dollars over the last fifteen years, and I have heard absolutely nothing to suggest that protecting the water supply quality has had anything to do with these particular management decisions regarding recreation in the Spada Reservoir area. That point was NOT even hinted at in the presentations on this whole Spada area planning process that I attended. As before, I invite somebody who may have information on these matters to add information. I mean no disrespect, Curt and Dru - I am only asking questions because I don't know the answers - but I don't have any information to suggest your speculations are valid. I am willing to cede, if given information, that decommissioning of this road was a good idea. I just don't have information to suggest so at present. What did it cost? Did the road actually threaten endangered fish? Did this particular decommission project actually help anything? Was the small amount of recreational traffic thought to threaten water supply quality?

If adding a half mile of walking to Static Point will help a few members of an endangered species, Rat, I'm all for it. However, at the meeting that I attended, I got the distinct impression that the DNR guy who may be making decisions about access in the Spada Reservoir area was very unfriendly to recreation more than he was concerned about Bullheads. He looked at an entire room full of people that included conservation groups, land manager types, and recreational users and said: I don't have to provide recreational opportunities and I'm not inclined to do so. I have not paid enough attention to really know, but I can well imagine that the decommissioning of that road might be about politics, money, and control more than it is about saving Bullhead. I'd like to know what other's may have to say about this, because my paranoid thoughts may be entirely unjust.

The pundits are saying that McCain is likely to lose because he has followed the traditional Republican play book. Is it possible that some fundamental ideas in American politics are changing? If the big three Republican mantras are discarded after this election cycle, we will all be better off. Think about it: 1) government is inherently bad for you; 2) trickle down economics will benefit the little guy; and 3) intelligence/science/knowledge should not underly public policy. These are the tenets of the Republican party ever since Reagan. If the election goes as predicted, can we celebrate the coming of more common sense in American politics? I sure as hell hope so.

Anybody who suggested Bush for assassination whth Cheney as vice president wasn't keeping their eye on the prize - if they had any liberal bent.

Gastroblast is good, but Tidbits even better. For a long time I've wanted a shot of climbers on Gastroblast as viewed from somewhere over toward the base of Till Broad Daylight. I've never been so lucky as to be up there when anybody else was on Gastroblast. Cool anti-knob feature on Gastroblast, too, eh? Did you end up doing a single bolt rappel or two?

News from Afghanistan, too. Gunfire brings down US helicopter in Afghanistan

Obama's proclaimed he would attack "suspected al queda strongmen?"

U.S. attacks al queda in Pakistan and Syria today. Interesting timing.

If only that were true, Fairweather.