forcing abortions

[rob]

Teenage girl won't be forced to get an abortion

 

So let me get this straight...if a minor DOESN'T want an abortion, she can't be forced by her parents. But if she DOES want one, she can't get one without their permission. Parents can only force you to have a baby, but can't force you to not have one?

 

So fucktarded. We're basically North Korea.

 

 

[ivan]

in north korea, baby abort you!!!

[ivan]

meanwhile, i can't even force my daughter to eat her goddamn dinner...

[pink]

Teenage girl won't be forced to get an abortion

 

So let me get this straight...if a minor DOESN'T want an abortion, she can't be forced by her parents. But if she DOES want one, she can't get one without their permission. Parents can only force you to have a baby, but can't force you to not have one?

 

So fucktarded. We're basically North Korea.

 

 

jerry springer airs in N Korea?

 

[ivan]

in the old testament days we'd get to stone the insolent wench and her baby!!!

 

NOW all we can do is get (eventually) stoned w/ her trailer-trash baby

[rob]

in the old testament days we'd get to stone the insolent wench and her baby!!!

 

nah, the boy would have just given the girl's father a few goats or something. They would only have killed her if she were raped.

[B Deleted_Beck]

in the old testament days we'd get to stone the insolent wench and her baby!!!

 

nah, the boy would have just given the girl's father a few goats or something. They would only have killed her if she were raped.

 

The truth isn't bad enough, we have to make it worse?

 

Raped girls were not stoned- the rapist was stoned. Unless he agreed to marry her.

[rob]

in the old testament days we'd get to stone the insolent wench and her baby!!!

 

nah, the boy would have just given the girl's father a few goats or something. They would only have killed her if she were raped.

 

The truth isn't bad enough, we have to make it worse?

 

Raped girls were not stoned- the rapist was stoned. Unless he agreed to marry her.

 

Wrong. Re-read your Deuteronomy (starting at 22-23, if you can't remember). If a betrothed woman was raped in the city, both were executed (she was in the city and should have cried out, after all, so it wasn't really even rape). But, if a betrothed woman was raped in the countryside, only the rapist was executed -- since nobody could have heard her cry out anyway. But, relevant to this story, if a man had sex with an unbetrothed virgin, nobody was executed -- the rapist had to pay 50 shekels to the woman's father, and marry her and give up his rights to a divorce.

 

"If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out, then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days."

 

Oh, christians.

[ivan]

wait, i thought we could blame the jews for dude-eronomy?

[rob]

I think you can always blame the jews, no?

[rob]

I recently finished reading "The First Muslim," by Lesley Hazleton. Holy shit, I would not want to be a Medinan jew in the 7th century. Especially not a member of the Banu Qurayza tribe.

 

 

[ivan]

I recently finished reading "The First Muslim," by Lesley Hazleton. Holy shit, I would not want to be a Medinan jew in the 7th century. Especially not a member of the Banu Qurayza tribe.

 

scores adn highlights?

 

i know "medina" means a jewish quarter/city in an arab land, and that ole'muhammad was invited to the famous one at a time when he was in political peril in mecca, but was well known for his talents as a mediator

 

seem to recall a big war on apostates after the old boy got pulled up to heaven on his golden chains, but i thought that was more against arab tribesmen who's conversions had been about personal loyalty to him as opposed to his creed...

[rob]

There were three or four major Jewish tribes living in Medina at the time of Muhammad's arrival, along with other non-Jewish arab tribes. As you say, Muhammad was invited due to his talents as mediator to help with the constant infighting in Medina between the various tribes. He came in and they all signed a pact of mutual cooperation under Muhammad's mediation, referred to as the Constitution of Medina.

 

The jews in Medina quickly lost favor with Muhammad after they were among the few who still refused to accept his station as prophet -- they argued that embracing Islam was never part of the agreement, just mutual cooperation.

 

One by one, Muhammad and his followers expelled the Jewish tribes, for various reasons, usually exiling them and allowing them to take with them only what they could carry. However, the last tribe standing, the Banu Qurayza, fell astray of his good wishes after Meccan soldiers attacked Medina. After the battle, there was some question of the Jewish tribe's loyalty to Muhammad, so Muhammad had every male "old enough to shave" executed, and the women and children sold into slavery.

 

Historical accounts estimate ~900 men were executed over the course of a few days and dumped into a mass grave, while the wailing women and children were sold in exchange for horses and arms.

 

Good times!

 

 

[ivan]

of course you meant:

 

allah akbar!!!

 

here's to raping the horses and stealing the women

[G-spotter]

What is good in life?

[ivan]

What is good in life?

"The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy, to drive him before you,

to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears,

and to gather into your bosom his wives and daughters."

 

- bob "genghis" khan

[ivan]

to link to rob's post re: the jews of medina, we can at least take comfort in the fact them thare mongols sure did grind out their corn-holes a few generations later

[B Deleted_Beck]

in the old testament days we'd get to stone the insolent wench and her baby!!!

 

nah, the boy would have just given the girl's father a few goats or something. They would only have killed her if she were raped.

 

The truth isn't bad enough, we have to make it worse?

 

Raped girls were not stoned- the rapist was stoned. Unless he agreed to marry her.

 

Wrong. Re-read your Deuteronomy (starting at 22-23, if you can't remember). If a betrothed woman was raped in the city, both were executed (she was in the city and should have cried out, after all, so it wasn't really even rape). But, if a betrothed woman was raped in the countryside, only the rapist was executed -- since nobody could have heard her cry out anyway. But, relevant to this story, if a man had sex with an unbetrothed virgin, nobody was executed -- the rapist had to pay 50 shekels to the woman's father, and marry her and give up his rights to a divorce.

 

"If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out, then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days."

 

Oh, christians.

 

Deut 22:23-24

 

If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

 

Nothing about rape. This is for consensual sex.

 

Deut 22:25-27

 

But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

 

In other words, if it happens in the countryside, the woman is always given the benefit of the doubt. You're understanding it backwards.

[ivan]

i seem to recall the jews had the good sense, quite early in their history, to develop a talmud that had he pleasing affect to so adjudicate all the craziness of the torah so as to render it toof-less

 

that said, didn't dude-er-onomy have good passages about killing folks who wore multiple cuts of cloth or sowed fields w/ more than 1 kinda seed?

[rob]

Deut 22:23-24

 

If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

 

Nothing about rape. This is for consensual sex.

 

Yeah, consensual sex as defined by her failing to scream out.

 

Obviously it cant be rape if nobody heard her scream. Kill her!

[ivan]

Edited February 22, 2013 by ivan

[B Deleted_Beck]

Deut 22:23-24

 

If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

 

Nothing about rape. This is for consensual sex.

 

Yeah, consensual sex as defined by her failing to scream out.

 

Obviously it cant be rape if nobody heard her scream. Kill her!

 

There was an expectation that a woman defend her purity, even if only shouting for help. You're certainly welcome to disagree with that, but don't distort the facts.

[rob]

Deut 22:23-24

 

If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

 

Nothing about rape. This is for consensual sex.

 

Yeah, consensual sex as defined by her failing to scream out.

 

Obviously it cant be rape if nobody heard her scream. Kill her!

 

There was an expectation that a woman defend her purity, even if only shouting for help.

 

Deuteronomy says that if an engaged virgin has sex with a man in the city, they are both killed. It doesn't say consensual sex, it just says "Sex" or "Laid with" (Depending on the translation). I don't see any exclusions in the verse for rapes happening in the city, do you? Sex happens? Death.

 

There is no provision for a woman being raped in the city. In fact, the implication from Deuteronomy is that there is no rape in the city -- she would have called out, after all! Only in the countryside is there an exclusion for rape.

 

It's a pretty hard verse to try to defend, but I'm sure you'll keep trying!

[ivan]

in a similar vein, the 12 tables of rome allowed a man to kill a man w/o a sound were he to intrude into his home after dark, but during the day he was first obligated to give a good old glorious shout out the window before wading in w/ the gladus

[B Deleted_Beck]

Deut 22:23-24

 

If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

 

Nothing about rape. This is for consensual sex.

 

Yeah, consensual sex as defined by her failing to scream out.

 

Obviously it cant be rape if nobody heard her scream. Kill her!

 

There was an expectation that a woman defend her purity, even if only shouting for help.

 

Deuteronomy says that if an engaged virgin has sex with a man in the city, they are both killed. It doesn't say consensual sex, it just says "Sex" or "Laid with" (Depending on the translation). I don't see any exclusions in the verse for rapes happening in the city, do you? Sex happens? Death.

 

There is no provision for a woman being raped in the city. In fact, the implication from Deuteronomy is that there is no rape in the city -- she would have called out, after all! Only in the countryside is there an exclusion for rape.

 

It's a pretty hard verse to try to defend, but I'm sure you'll keep trying!

 

The "implication" is going to be whatever you decide it is. One thing that's really clear from these many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many sprayfests you get into is that you make it up as you go.. and unless one finds himself super bored with absolutely nothing better to do, there's not much point to trying to enjoy any kind of debate like that.

 

So relish another illusory spray victory.. 'cause you totally win.

 

-Ben