What about those routes?

[Dru]

Mentioned by Matt P that are being put up but not reported on this site. are they being reported at all? Like in a new route bok in a climbing store or gym? Matt do you know where they are? Are they not being reported because of their "controversial nature" of whatever sort? what's the story? now i am curious! any chance we could get someone who posts to this site to collect and disseminate the information?

[mattp]

I have recently talked with other climbers about new-route activity at four major Washington climbing areas, and in conversations pertaining to all of these areas I have been asked to consider NOT sharing information either on my web site or on this one -- and the main reason cited has been a fear for political and emotional battles that might result. I don't think it is a matter of these people having done something they may be ashamed of, as has been suggested on this site from time to time, but I think these people truly believe (as I do) that combative argument (particularly when taken off line and onto the mountainsides) and personal attack are bad for the sport and could ultimately threaten climbing at several areas around the State. Some of these new routes are purely sport, some purely traditional, and some a hybrid.

Whether this site might one day be the place to post the information, like an on-line climbing journal, remains to be seen (there was a thread on this topic, back in January)

[Cpt.Caveman]

I think that is funny. Oh well there is more rock in the enchantments to last me several more years.. I think that if they just dont go bolting at Castle and other obvious routes then they don't have anything to worry about. Personally I find it ridiculous and at the same time humorous.

Anyone ever check out that crag on the way to Stuart Lake? Looks like a mini Midnight Rock. Just pass the cutoff to Colchuck go towards Stuart and look up and right..

[This message has been edited by Cpt.Caveman (edited 08-10-2001).]

[Dru]

Oh yeah, purely traditional lines, I can see the fur thats gonna fly if those are reported all right, people are gonna run out and make a statement by rap bolting them.... NOT!

I still confess I don't understand if the routes are "not controversial" then why are they gonna generate combative posting? Unless you describe the routes in more detail I am never gonna clue in either I guess.

[Cpt.Caveman]

You see the thing is I tell everyone where the rock is at so they can find the routes I did not that are good.

Oh yeah and somebody climb some more routes at Nada Lake crag so I can do them too.

[This message has been edited by Cpt.Caveman (edited 08-10-2001).]

[Dan_Petersen]

I think the genesis of a new route goes something like this. First, a gleam in the eye as a new line shows possibility. Second comes a reconnaissance (or many) and an ascent. During this stage the route remains secretive to protect it for its first ascender. Third comes an announcement of the route’s completion within the climbing community. Finally its presence is published in some guidebook. Someone’s ego is involved in every stage but 1 and 2.

Maybe the dilemma of the internet is that criticism and feedback is so direct. If you establish a new route, you have created something like an artwork. Once that work is out in the public, criticism follows. Unlike doodles or watercolors that you do for your own edification, climbing routes (especially those where anchors and protection are left behind) are public. If you do a great job, the route becomes a coveted classic, but not without a number of ascents by other climbers and a fair amount of criticism regarding the route’s quality and difficulty. If you do a crummy job, the criticism ensues, and then obscurity. Seems to me it is the nature of the game.

Now for a serious question. Why do new routes and not share them? There is risk that critics you don’t respect might pan your effort, but there is also the reward of sharing something you are proud of with an appreciative audience. If you share the information on the internet, the feedback comes almost immediately, and it comes often from sources for which you have no respect or admiration. On the other hand, if you keep the information to yourself, or to a select number of like-minded friends, you may never really know if what you created is a hack job or a masterpiece. Of course, you might not care, either. Either way, I’d be interested.

 

[mattp]

If you want a recent public example of traditional routes that have been controversial, look at Vantage. Some people have suggested that those chossy cracks should not be subject to having the loose rock removed. Some of those involved in the local climbers association may argue that it is not the routes, but the route setter, but there are other examples of crack cleaning drawing fire. At Leavenworth, for example, there have been periodic arguments that a crack which in its natural state is filled with dirt and moss should not be subject to route development. My guess is that the great Outer Space route was filled with grass on the first ascent but here I digress. The point is that there are valid arguments in support of and against the abstract statement that cracks which may contain soil and living matter should be left alone, but a debate of this issue could easily degenerate to name-calling and threats, which behavior could have a broader affect beyond simply angering or intimidating the immediate participants. The maintenance of trails serving various climbing areas is another activity that has at times become controversial. It is not only the crazed and irresponsible bolter who feels that public discussion of their activity may be something they would rather avoid.

[Dru]

quote:

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Originally posted by mattp:

If you want a recent public example of traditional routes that have been controversial, look at Vantage. Some people have suggested that those chossy cracks should not be subject to having the loose rock removed. Some of those involved in the local climbers association may argue that it is not the routes, but the route setter, but there are other examples of crack cleaning drawing fire. At Leavenworth, for example, there have been periodic arguments that a crack which in its natural state is filled with dirt and moss should not be subject to route development. My guess is that the great Outer Space route was filled with grass on the first ascent but here I digress. The point is that there are valid arguments in support of and against the abstract statement that cracks which may contain soil and living matter should be left alone, but a debate of this issue could easily degenerate to name-calling and threats, which behavior could have a broader affect beyond simply angering or intimidating the immediate participants. The maintenance of trails serving various climbing areas is another activity that has at times become controversial. It is not only the crazed and irresponsible bolter who feels that public discussion of their activity may be something they would rather avoid.

---

 

Based on Squamish experience, and from what I see of Leavenworth too, if a route is cleaned but does not become popular it only takes 5 years to fill back in with dirt and moss to its original state -like Dog Dome and Slug Rock. As was recently observed by Anders Ourom "When it comes to trees and climbers at Squamish, the trees are winning."

As for cleaning loose rock at Vantage - the whole place is loose, some of those routes you could start cleaning and you'd never stop It all depends if the FA wants people to repeat the route or not.

By the "route setter not the route" do you mean the crazy guy who climbs in a white suit covered in spray painted graffiti and talks about rape and carnage all the time? I heard some scary stories from some friends of mine who met that guy. I was lucky enough not to on my one visit there. Whew!

 

[Cpt.Caveman]

Matt,

I am not personally the tree huggin type. But if someone gets pissed about a crack being cleaned oh well what can I do now. I know for sure that R Route on Fairview was one of those and I would suspect Outer Space was too.... It matters not to me. It's dirt in a crack that is not going to amount to much more than a minute amount of grass in the end..

[Cpt.Caveman]

Back to routes:

Anyone climb the Recurve Buttress, Jupiter Rock or Waterfall Column in Tumwater?

How about the Cobra or any of those nice towers in the Icicle?

[mattp]

I know I brought him up, but let's not turn this into a discussion of the crazy guy who climbs in a white suit. I brought up crack cleaning and mentioned a specific example in an effort to counter your suggestion that it would only be one who has done something that he knows is wrong who would not want to stand up in public. Maybe the "crazy guy" is a poor example or maybe he is a perfect one, but my point is that hesitant publishers may not be doing anything that, in hindsight, will be viewed poorly by most climbers.

 

[Dru]

Isnt there a tower called Rabbit Ears up by Cobra and Nonwall, you could get Neri up there....

[Cpt.Caveman]

Yeppers who the heck is Neri?

[Dru]

quote:

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Originally posted by mattp:

I know I brought him up, but let's not turn this into a discussion of the crazy guy who climbs in a white suit.

does he post here? I hope I havent offended anyone?

 

I brought up crack cleaning and mentioned a specific example in an effort to counter your suggestion that it would only be one who has done something that he knows is wrong who would not want to stand up in public. Maybe the "crazy guy" is a poor example or maybe he is a perfect one, but my point is that hesitant publishers may not be doing anything that, in hindsight, will be viewed poorly by most climbers.

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So....they haven't done anything wrong - but they don't want to publish because someone might irrationally criticize them anyways?

On this BBS I can only think of 2 controversial routes - Condorphamin, which, not having done myself, i can only recap that people here seemed to think was a good route, but overgraded and unnecessary bolting...route developer shpould take those opinions into account for further routes... and some project on east face of Concord that ppl were worried was going to be another full sport job with bolts next to cracks etc - once someone gave some concrete details like the bolts were going to be on 12+/13 face pitches with no other pro and there was gonna be plenty of crack climbing on gear, everyone shut up about it.

Route criticism seems to increase in direct proportion to absence of concrete info on it, get those guys posting and they will see nothing to worry about.

[Dru]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:

Yeppers who the heck is Neri?

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see thread about ultimate rack hes the guy (?) that brings 25 feet of rabbit ears with him, what the ?????

 

[Retrosaurus]

Matt,

Get real . Those arguements against traditional routes are weak and we all know it. The only real controversial issues are installation of fixed gear, drilling, chipping and over use (erosion/multiple trails, etc) and overuse almost always requires mass bolting.

Mitch

[Lambone]

Sorry Caveman, you are just so easy to bait. I've caught ten pound bass with smaller worms. We both have trigger tempers, but I'm over it. Have fun this weekend! One more North Ridge attempt for you? Weather should be good this time.

About the topic, I don't think any climbing area should be kept a secrect, be it Ice, Rock, Choss...whatever. If it is on public land than it should be made public. If the private land owner gives permision to the public to climb there, than info should be available to all. Keeping spots a secret is B.S. Then again, I don't put up routes so what do I know...

[Cpt.Caveman]

I agree that spots should not be secret. Lata

[mattp]

Caveman and Lambone -

I agree that the cliffs and mountainsides in this world are public resources and I do not think that routes should be kept secret. In private, I have argued to many of these mystery people who were the original topic of this thread that they should not fear the publication of their information -- but it is certainly not up to me to "out" somebody who wishes to remain private. And no, Cavey, I do not think you are in person a mean spirited guy. Sometimes on the screen I think you overstep the bounds a bit. I brought you up as an example, like the "crazy guy in white," because you are prominent.

-Mattp

[mattp]

And no, I have not yet posted anything on this site under any other "alias."

[Peter_Puget]

Dan -

I'd say the ego is involved in all 4 stages you mentioned. I am no new route master but I have made several FAs over the years. Some I told my friends about right away and I looked forward to their reporting back - hoping of course they liked it. Others I have chosen not to report. Routes in this class were done at some areas in CA which at the time lacked a guidebook. Part of the fun of that area was the sense of exploration. Oddly the area has been documented now and most of our routes weren't included! Despite being, at least in our minds, obvious lines.

As far as vegetation being a non issue. It is far from it. Vegetation growing on rocks is often significant issue. I believe that destruction of vegetation on the rock was a significant issue at the crags along I-90 as well as at Index. It has also been an issue at many other locations throughout the US. Lichens once removed can take years to reform this fact has been used effectively many times by anti climbing advocates. Anti climbing advocates have also noted the visual impact of scrubbed lines at Index but more importantly at least in this forum in the Icicle canyon itself.

[mattp]

Mitch -

I agree with you about which "issues" are more real than others. They are not the only issues, however. Aside from fears about controversy itself, Puget has noted in the Negativity thread that he too has talked about people who refuse to post their information on this site because they do not like the tone of what takes place here. I should note that my original premise was that I do not believe that threats and personal attacks are helpful, and it appears that nobody except perhaps Cavey would disagree. I will continue to assert that those who argue that it doesn't matter what they say here are merely trying to make excuses for their own posturing and jive and that they in fact are refusing to take responsibility for THEIR OWN actions.

Mattp

[Cpt.Caveman]

Matt,

Obviously Lambone was baiting me in controversial manner. Having met me do you think I was hostile?

Having met and climbed with several people on this site I doubt others would say that I am too hostile unless provoked.

Sitting behind your computer in anonymity and criticizing me is just what characters like Puget is doing. I say he is just as bad or worse than me but hey I can live with that. For all I know Peter Puget is you Matt, or Lambone or Matt Kerns or some other dude? WHo knows who really cares a whole lot either cuz either way I am still going into the mountains to have fun this weekend. I doubt he will be worried about me stalking him with a machete.