NW Forest Pass - boycott payment, right?

[Retrosaurus]

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Rybolt:

"The late great Abbey"?? Surely you jest! Edward Abbey's "Monkey Wrench Gang" book puts him in a class with Timothy McVeigh and Osama Bin Laden.

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Brian,

Abbey was an environmentalist and a writer, highly aclaimed. The characters in one of his books were terrorists (for the environment). If this puts him in the same class as Timothy McVeigh and Osama Bin Laden, you may have a bit of trouble separating fiction from reality.

[Fairweather]

Retro,

"...characters in his book were terrorists (for the environment)"... as if it is ok since it was "for the environment"?... He IS highly acclaimed indeed; by Earth First and ELF/ALF types who like to go aroung burning down ski resorts, rich folks homes, and university laboratories. His books gave them the formula for the loose asociations that they keep as well as the glorification of this type of terrorism. ....Oh yeah, I forgot...if it is "for the environment" then that makes it OK. Is that right? This is the type of mentality that allows people like McVeigh to blow up a building full of innocent people without remorse, or bomb an airliner out of the sky and harden themselves to the "collateral damage", or spike a tree without concern for the logger (father, son of someone) who could get a cutting chain wrapped around their head. No, I stand by my Edward Abbey analysis...he espoused terrorism as a means to further his agenda. He was a terrorist.

[pope]

Brian,

What Abbey espoused, and the fictitious acts of his fictional characters, aren't necessarily parallel. Furthermore, his characters typically harm construction equipment in an attempt to retard the "progress" of sprawl. I read most of those books in high school, but I don't remember Abbey's characters' blowing up any federal buildings during business hours.

Civil disobedience always falls on a continuum of severity, and even the most benign acts meet objections. The environmental "geeks", which appear in a small sample of Abbey's work, might operate outside the law, but perhaps their efforts to protect our planet from those who would poison it in the name of a few dollars shouldn't be compared to the acts of your buddy Tim McVeigh. Your comparison amounts to extreme exaggeration of nearly harmless acts perpetrated by fictional characters, with the intent of condemning Abbey and his followers for giving a shit about clean air and trees, through an attempt to equate their efforts to the truly evil acts of mass murderers.

When you don't really have an argument, it is sometimes better to think, then write, or better yet, just continue to think.

[Fairweather]

Pope,

McVeigh is no more a "buddy of mine" than the Unibomber is a buddy of yours. I think you were a bit over the line there. My attacks have been limited to Ed Abbey and his book/ideas. Why are your attacks personal? This is typical of those on the enviro/left. "Shout it down", or as you so perfectly stated:..."better yet,don't write."

I guess I did take us on a bizzare detour from the Forest/Demo topic.

 

[pope]

I shouldn't have implied he was your buddy...I'm just trying to make the logical jump between Abbey's characters and some of the terrorists you picked out of the blue. Don't mean no disrespect, no sir not me, sir.

[Retrosaurus]

Brian,

Before you tag Abbey as a terrorist based on a highly entertaining and funny piece of fiction you should read his book "Desert Solitaire".

But since it seems obvious that you won't be swayed, just buy your Northwest Forest Pass and pave the world.

Mitch

[This message has been edited by Retrosaurus (edited 08-14-2001).]

[hakioawa]

It is perhaps a little sad that Abbey is best remembered by those who didn't read him for "The Monkey Wrench Gang". A great little piece of fiction IMHO. Abbey always wanted to be know for his fiction, though I'd say his best work was his non-fiction. Desert Solitaire, and numerous essays.

It is easy to think of him as a terrorist. He would have loved it because doing so would prove his point that most Americans are simple minded people who don't take the time or effort to see things for what they really are. It's much easier to sit in you air conditioned car and drive to the top than climb a mountain. So to is it easier to call someone a terrorist for writing a novel about monkey wrenching.

If Abbey is a terrorist for suggesting someone disable a bulldozer with karo syrup, isn't Former Governor Bush a terrorist for suggesting we destroy ANWR for a few barrels of oil?

I second the thought to think before you write. If not I trust you have a big towel for all the spray you will provoke.

[mattp]

Brian, I pretty much disagree with you but I gotta say that I respect your willingness to stick your neck out when you know there will be ten enviro-geeks spraying back.

[Fairweather]

hakioawa,

the only mountain I've ever driven to the top of in an air conditioned vehicle was Mauna Kea...and I felt guilty...the rest I climbed...hundreds, if not thousands, frankly. Because one holds views that don't "fit the stereotype" of climbers does't make them a tourist. (although I hold no ill will toward those that are...hell, we'll all get old someday. Should we stay at home and shrivel up?) I can assure you that my primary aim here is to stir debate. I'm tired of all climbers being painted with the same green brush. I'll admit that I have read only "The Monkeywrench Gang". Another of his "works" is called "Hayduke Lives". On the cover is a picture of a hand holding a bundle of TNT with a timing device attached and heavy equipment in the background.....I didn't bother to read it. (Just a question: would blowing up the Glenn Canyon Dam be an act of terrorism?)

I won't beat this subject to death. I just wanted to point out the slippery slope that IS environmental terrorism. It is no different from any other form thereof.

[Fairweather]

pope,

peace. I loved your "big Lou" string. I've met the guy a few times and think he's great! How many of us can do what we love for our entire lives and make a living off of it too? You spend much time on "The Mountain"?

[pope]

Brian,

I've almost always lived within an hour of the MRNP, and I get up there whenever I can. My interests trend more toward rock work, but I did run ropes for Pierce College's climbing classes for a couple of summers. Not until this last week did I ever meet Mighty Lou, and I was genuinely impressed.

[Fairweather]

Pope,

went to Pierce (then Fort Steilacoom CC) in 81, 82, and 83. (spent too much time climbing, not enough studying) The climbing program was then in its infancy. "Ron Servine" was the director...is he still around? I live near Tacoma so we're probably not too far apart...geographically.

[pope]

I worked for Ron and Jeff Sharp about a decade ago. Those guys were damn competent, but I'm not sure the competence trickled down. I live out in Bonney Lake. Maybe I'll see you out at the Swiss this evening.

[crazyjizzy]

Brian,

Don't judge "Hayduke Lives" by the cover. While I think that "Lives" is Abbey's weakest work (he was dying when he wrote it), he most probably had nothing to do with the selection of the cover, and was in fact in the grave. My favorite Abbey book is the clearly autobiographical "Coming Home", also written while he was dying. But while most of his efforts went into the latter, the former was a knock off for his fans.

Lam,

My beef with the pass program is that we are paying more in taxes than anytime in US history except WWII. Where is the money going? We are recieving less for more money.

[Alpine_Tom]

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Rybolt:

(Just a question: would blowing up the Glenn Canyon Dam be an act of terrorism?)

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According to Lenin, "the purpose of terrorism is to terrorize." So, no. Blowing up the Glenn [sic] Canyon dam wouldn't be terrorism. Spiking trees might be considered terrorism.