Greek Style

[rob]

But they're only greek. Greek lives aren't as important.

[G-spotter]

Pulling your head out of your ass sure would help you realize that the world of plenty of people is indeed ending.

 

every end is a new beginning. after living unsustainably comes living sustainably

[rob]

and they smell.

[j_b]

Those building gated communities sure don't see it that way and don't plan on ever giving up grabbing all that they can. No matter how little is left.

 

Who wrote that regions like the Pacific NW that have plenty of resources and shouldn't be catastrophically affected by climate change would become the prime targets of pirates roaming the Pacific? There, is a catastrophic vision of the end of the world as we know it.

 

As for the Greeks, many don't live unsustainably, especially the small farmers who lost everything in mega-fires of never seen intensity until a few years ago.

 

[G-spotter]

pirates roaming the pacific?

yarrrr.

 

with a ship made out of shipping containers?

[j_b]

probably some junk boat since the pirates would preferentially come from that part of the world with the greatest needs

[prole]

[video:youtube]

[j_b]

don't break the speed limit with that boat

 

[video:youtube]dFGS7YCDk3Y

[JayB]

Wow, it's a complete mystery why European workers wouldn't want to work more hours for less pay, dismantle environmental and building restrictions, pay more money for worse health care, increase economic inequalities, increase corporate power in politics and over daily life through privatization, decrease their security in old age, and gut their educational systems along with the rest of the post-war legacy that's made them the envy of the world in order to "compete" in a credit card funded hotdog-eating contest with America. To the extent European neoliberals have been able to affect change in their countries (and it has been considerable), it's been an unmitigated disaster. Choke on it.

 

Nary a neoliberal to be seen anywhere behind Ye Ole Iron Curtain for ~50 years, with the strictest enforcement of all of the protections against competition, privatization, corporate power, etc that you list above plus equally strict enforcement of social equality for ~98% of the population - yet it all imploded.

 

Strange.

 

 

[JayB]

They wear sheep's clothing and can't be as blatant in their destruction of the social safety net and deregulation of economic activity because the traditional European left still has plenty of muscle, but neolibs are in control of Europe. Just look at the way they rammed down people's throat their version of a constitution that enshrines "free trade" (read unfair trade) and economic competition.

 

If all the Euros had to worry about was a band of renegade neoliberals inserting the odd free-trade agreement here and there they'd be dancing in the streets.

 

Sure beats having to contemplate a slow motion fiscal and demographic collapse....

 

 

 

 

[prole]

Wow, it's a complete mystery why European workers wouldn't want to work more hours for less pay, dismantle environmental and building restrictions, pay more money for worse health care, increase economic inequalities, increase corporate power in politics and over daily life through privatization, decrease their security in old age, and gut their educational systems along with the rest of the post-war legacy that's made them the envy of the world in order to "compete" in a credit card funded hotdog-eating contest with America. To the extent European neoliberals have been able to affect change in their countries (and it has been considerable), it's been an unmitigated disaster. Choke on it.

 

Nary a neoliberal to be seen anywhere behind Ye Ole Iron Curtain for ~50 years, with the strictest enforcement of all of the protections against competition, privatization, corporate power, etc that you list above plus equally strict enforcement of social equality for ~98% of the population - yet it all imploded.

 

Strange.

 

 

Are you kidding? Practically the entire region is still trying to recover from the neoliberal "shock treatment" administered after the collapse of Communism. The political corruption of the past pales in comparison with rise of the oligarchs ushered in by free market fundamentalist eggheads.

[JayB]

Wow, it's a complete mystery why European workers wouldn't want to work more hours for less pay, dismantle environmental and building restrictions, pay more money for worse health care, increase economic inequalities, increase corporate power in politics and over daily life through privatization, decrease their security in old age, and gut their educational systems along with the rest of the post-war legacy that's made them the envy of the world in order to "compete" in a credit card funded hotdog-eating contest with America. To the extent European neoliberals have been able to affect change in their countries (and it has been considerable), it's been an unmitigated disaster. Choke on it.

 

Nary a neoliberal to be seen anywhere behind Ye Ole Iron Curtain for ~50 years, with the strictest enforcement of all of the protections against competition, privatization, corporate power, etc that you list above plus equally strict enforcement of social equality for ~98% of the population - yet it all imploded.

 

Strange.

 

 

Are you kidding? Practically the entire region is still trying to recover from the neoliberal "shock treatment" administered after the collapse of Communism. The political corruption of the past pales in comparison with rise of the oligarchs ushered in by free market fundamentalist eggheads.

 

The key phrase here is "collapse of communism."

 

Again:

 

Nary a neoliberal to be seen anywhere behind Ye Ole Iron Curtain for ~50 years, with the strictest enforcement of all of the protections against competition, privatization, corporate power, etc that you list above plus equally strict enforcement of social equality for ~98% of the population - yet it all imploded.

.

 

 

 

[j_b]

The economies of the most neoliberal countries in Europe are barely threading water and that's probably only because nobody has really seen the (cooked) books.

[prole]

Nary a neoliberal to be seen anywhere behind Ye Ole Iron Curtain for ~50 years, with the strictest enforcement of all of the protections against competition, privatization, corporate power, etc that you list above plus equally strict enforcement of social equality for ~98% of the population - yet it all imploded.

 

And yet, just a couple of years of unrestrained capitalism has left them pining for the old days. Furthermore, apart from the spectacles provided by successive bubble-economies, capitalism has been in slow motion collapse for decades. What's your point?

[j_b]

The economies of the most neoliberal countries in Europe are barely threading water and that's probably only because nobody has really seen the (cooked) books.

 

and I ignored the few that have already gone under.

[j_b]

Nary a neoliberal to be seen anywhere behind Ye Ole Iron Curtain for ~50 years, with the strictest enforcement of all of the protections against competition, privatization, corporate power, etc that you list above plus equally strict enforcement of social equality for ~98% of the population - yet it all imploded.

 

Strange.

 

 

In other words, you claim that the robber-baron economy is the only alternative to Stalinism. What a bleak world view.

[JayB]

Nary a neoliberal to be seen anywhere behind Ye Ole Iron Curtain for ~50 years, with the strictest enforcement of all of the protections against competition, privatization, corporate power, etc that you list above plus equally strict enforcement of social equality for ~98% of the population - yet it all imploded.

 

And yet, just a couple of years of unrestrained capitalism has left them pining for the old days. Furthermore, apart from the spectacles provided by successive bubble-economies, capitalism has been in slow motion collapse for decades. What's your point?

 

Yes, yes. Always looming in market economies, and materializing in socialist/communist regimes.

 

My point is that each and every state that has rigidly adhered to/enforced the policies that you favor to the bitter end have followed a common trajectory terminating in complete economic collapse.

 

What - specifically - is it about the examples of Cold War era Bulgaria, East Germany, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc - all of which carried your favorite policy prescriptions to their logical and political limits that screams "solution" to you?

 

Hell - assume that the Greek Civil Service snaps its fingers and has complete control over all of the resources in the country at its disposal. They run everything. Nationalize everything, outlaw profits, etc, etc, etc, etc? How - according to you - will this put the country en route to become anything other than a Mediterranean Venezuela (without the petro-windfall to squander)?

 

 

[Hugh Conway]

I thought most of them want the old days back because they had more of a chance for power and money under the old corrupt regime then they do under the new corrupt regime.

 

If neo-liberals want to claim the East, well, that's yet more proof they are intellectually bankrupt

[j_b]

You have to admire JayB's audacity: Greece is bankrupt because of neoliberalism's casino capitalism, yet he manages to indict mixed economies. The dude has no shame.

[j_b]

My point is that each and every state that has rigidly adhered to/enforced the policies that you favor to the bitter end have followed a common trajectory terminating in complete economic collapse.

 

I don't know if your statement is true for prole, but it is definitely true about you. All robber-baron economies eventually collapse and it usually doesn't take them 50 years, a few decades is all that is needed.

[prole]

You seem to have me confused with someone else. The Hobson's Choice that j_b laid out above seems to be the only kind you folks, with your "slippery slopes" and "roads to serfdom", have to offer anymore. I've never advocated for the kind of economies you describe, only for one which actually works for everyone, provides for equality of access to (and in many cases, the provision of) basic services, opportunity for social mobility, respect for human rights, political and economic freedom, and the respect for a multitude of difference. That you dopes have taken the language and spirit of these ideas and gradually reduced them to the catshit grab-bag of property rights uber alles, "economic freedom", and free market fundamentalism over human and ecological need is a testament not to your vision but to your cynicism. Bleak outlook indeed.

[JayB]

You have to admire JayB's audacity: Greece is bankrupt because of neoliberalism's casino capitalism, yet he manages to indict mixed economies. The dude has no shame.

 

Greece is bankrupt because the cost of their public sector exceeds their capacity to finance it.

 

Every for profit enterprise in the world could have been vaporized twenty years ago and the only difference it would have made is that Greece's economy would have collapsed far more rapidly, since there'd be no real savings elsewhere for them to borrow to sustain their public servants in idleness from the age of 58 'till death.

 

 

[j_b]

of course, here you are, blaming government and the public sector, per usual.

 

Perhaps, some day you'll stop cherry-picking data and you'll consider the entire debt, public AND private, and then it'll become apparent that overall debt levels are very similar if not higher in more neoliberal economies.

[Hugh Conway]

oh silly Communist. Company's declare bankruptcy, fuck their creditors and employees, then reconstitute to do the "good work".

 

Country's cant

[JayB]

oh silly Communist. Company's declare bankruptcy, fuck their creditors and employees, then reconstitute to do the "good work".

 

Country's cant

 

Someone should break this news to Argentina, post haste...