Lead at belay station, but never heard Off Belay

[SplashClimber]

Ok, sure seems like a simple question, but the setup is long, and might well be the longest post in cascadeclimber history for such a simple question. Here is a very lengthy setup of the situation:

 

Climber AA is the leader, Climber BB is the follower. So here is an actual situation that happened to me, and I am wondering how the situation could have worked out better or could have been improved.

 

Follower BB could see visually that the leader AA, had likely reached the belay station, plus there was not any rope left to proceed anyway. (BB indeed did yell how much rope was left, and eventually BB yelled "that's me"). It seemed like a real long time passed, but BB waited patiently for the expected command from AA "Off Belay". BB never heard "Off Belay", and more time passed, and so BB thought climber AA was just having a difficult time establishing an safe anchor. So BB waited some more (5 minutes). At this point BB was not sure what was going on. Another fact is, voice communication/yelling seemed fine, in addition both climbers have radios. At this point, AA yelled "Belay On". So communication had somehow definitely broken down... and who knows where, but it did break down. (So normally this is how we communicate: AA - Off Belay, BB - Belay Off, BB - That's Me, AA - Belay On, BB - Climbing, AA - Climb On).

 

So what happened as a result it a bit of a slow-down in getting moving once again for the team. Normally BB could have been taking AA off belay, and disasembling part of the anchor setup while AA was working on shoring up the anchor setup, or possibly hauling up more rope.

 

So the question... what should BB have done during the long 5 minute waiting period. Should BB had yelled "On Belay?" when BB realized it seemed like a really long time. BB has no way of know what AA is up to, all BB knows is that he needs to keep AA on belay. But.... a really long time has passed! So should BB yell "On Belay?" What possible commands would AA yell back at this point? Possible answers from AA are 1)AA could either still be in need of a belay -- so AA yells "NO" or "On Belay?" or says nothing, or 2) AA might be safely anchored but still working on the total anchor setup - so AA yells "NO", or 3) AA might be ready to belay BB on up - so AA yells "Belay On".

 

Wheww...!!!

[JosephH]

First and foremost, BB should not yell "on belay" in this circumstance. If BB is getting impatient and wants to know what's going on they should ask - if, as you say, you have line-of-sight communication. Second, how does one even get in such a conundrum if you do have both line-of-sight and radios...?

[NoahT]

Like bb said, they don't know what aa is doing. If they trust aa is competent, then aa will communicate when bb is on belay. bb needs to stay flexible...

[NateF]

If the situation had been that you had no way to verbally communicate and hadn't agreed on any rope signals, i'd say you did the best you could under the circumstances, and it worked out. Given that you say you could verbally communicate with and without radios I don't really understand what the question is. Like Joseph said, if (assuming you were BB) you're wondering whether they're off belay, just ask them. Sometimes people forget to tell you.

 

I'd guess that since you yelled "That's Me!", AA either figured you had taken them off belay already, or they didn't care whether you took them off belay or not because they didn't have any rope to pull. They must not have considered that you could save some time and energy by knowing they were off belay.

 

Maybe you can tell us, did AA just forget to tell BB he was off belay or what?

 

[marc_leclerc]

BB cannot take AA off belay because all the rope is run out and they are now in simul-climbing position with BB at the bottom end of the rope. Whether the belay device is on the rope or not AA is still on belay.

[Buckaroo]

You're not exactly clear about what happened? You say you're in voice range, then you say things got said but not heard. When AA finally yelled "belay on" did BB hear that?

 

here's what you should have done, after waiting what you thought was longer than it should have taken.

 

 

BB yells out "hey AA, are you off?"

 

no answer?

 

BB yells out "HEY AA!!!!! AM I ON?"

 

no answer? use the radio.

 

you neglect to mention if you're using a 60m, at full stretch they can be right at the limit of voice communication. Especially if you're over a little bulge or there's some wind.

 

With a 60m, even if you have radio's you need a rope tug communication system just in case. Radio's can fail. With rope tug signals there's only one time you signal per pitch and that's like this. The leader gets to the belay and sets up an anchor and puts the follower on belay, then he signals with (typically) 5 hard tugs about 2 sec long and timed about 2 sec apart. This is taken to mean the leader is off belay and has put the follower on belay and it's ready to climb.

 

the main thing whatever tug system you use is to make the tugs all alike, even with each other, that way there's no mistaking what you're doing and not confusing it with climbing up and down at a crux or something.

[SplashClimber]

Second, how does one even get in such a conundrum if you do have both line-of-sight and radios...?

 

To answer quoted question above... BB was not sure what to yell that would be concise, clear and not so wordy. So I am sort of wondering what BB SHOULD have said either by yelling or on the radio.

 

re: line-of-sight.... BB and AA could not quite see each other. AA was just out of view, so BB could not see what AA was doing.

 

rope tugs -- probably should have worked out with partner prior to the climb rope tugs just in case there is failure of voice and radio methods.

[SplashClimber]

Maybe you can tell us, did AA just forget to tell BB he was off belay or what?

...I do not know if AA forgot to say off belay, or if BB did not hear it.

 

I'd guess that since you yelled "That's Me!", AA either figured you had taken them off belay already

.... good point, maybe an assumption was made by AA that they were automatically taken off belay.

[SplashClimber]

When AA finally yelled "belay on" did BB hear that?

yes

 

here's what you should have done,

..

Thank-you for the suggestions on what should have done, very thorough, and we should have gone over the rope tug(s) to be used. Although rope tugs would have been a bit hard to differentiate from the extreme rope drag, but still probably able to distinguish anyway (especially if done the way you described so well!)

Edited August 29, 2009 by SplashClimber

[Sherri]

BB cannot take AA off belay because all the rope is run out and they are now in simul-climbing position with BB at the bottom end of the rope. Whether the belay device is on the rope or not AA is still on belay.

 

Exactly. If I were BB, I would less concerned about shouting commands etc or taking AA off belay as it is a moot point once the rope is pulled up to you. You could begin breaking down the anchor if you're worried about wasting time waiting(was it getting dark or was a storm approaching that made those 5 minutes critical?) and keep yourself anchored to one bomber piece until AA starts moving or tugging on you. Either way, the only thing you can do once the rope is tight on you is be prepared to move. Communication didn't necessarily "break down." Once commands are indecipherable or inaudible, the movement of the rope--along with experience and/or good judgment-- is your cue. Sometimes safety depends on the ability to stay flexible to an array of variables out there in the real world. It's not a climbing gym where commands will always follow a cue card.

 

Good luck and good on ya for asking how to make the best of an unexpected situation!

[JosephH]

BB cannot take AA off belay because all the rope is run out and they are now in simul-climbing position with BB at the bottom end of the rope. Whether the belay device is on the rope or not AA is still on belay.

 

Exactly. If I were BB, I would less concerned about shouting commands etc or taking AA off belay as it is a moot point once the rope is pulled up to you. You could begin breaking down the anchor...

I interpret the situation quite differently - I would very much recommend, on running out of rope but still belaying, you do nothing beyond informing the leader they are out of rope, so long as you have some form of workable communication with the leader. DO NOT STOP BELAYING, DO NOT REMOVE THE ROPE FROM THE BELAY DEVICE, DO NOT BREAK DOWN THE ANCHOR - DO NOTHING - do not initiate any kind of action whatsoever; let the leader do that. If they need slack they're out of luck, you warned them they were running out of rope and then ended up out of rope. And if they want you to stop belaying and start simuclimbing it's on them to say so; ditto for breaking down the belay and anchor ('off belay'). In this scenario it's the leader's responsibility to initiate any change in the status quo.

 

Now that scenario, and your reaction, changes entirely if the leader is incommunicato for any reason. In that case - and as Marc and Sherri are basically saying - if the leader gets to the end of the rope and you can feel through the rope that they aren't stopping or have started jerking on the rope then you need to quit belaying, bust the anchor, and get your ass in gear climbing as quickly as humanly possible. This is where there is an art and skill to belaying with regard to feeling / knowing what an out-of-sight leader is doing through the rope. Holding a [very] slight, continuous tension on the rope with your non-brake hand allows you to maintain an active connection with the leader. Over time and enough yardage, particularly with the same partner, you should be able to learn roughly what the leader is up to at any given moment. That ability breaks down on some terrain and in situations where the leader slings the rope path poorly resulting in heavy rope drag, but for most pitches it works pretty well and is an important skill to learn.

[LostCamKenny]

BB cannot take AA off belay because all the rope is run out and they are now in simul-climbing position with BB at the bottom end of the rope. Whether the belay device is on the rope or not AA is still on belay.

but if a team is going to simul-climb they must decide on that before AA starts climbing. It is worth mentioning that the belay during simul-climbing is a dynamic(running)belay, meaning that if either climber falls then the other climber becomes the belay - actually more of a counterweight.

[G-spotter]

You should only climb with people you're telepathic with. If you absolutely have to wait to hear a command from someone before you start doing what you need to do anyway, on complex terrain with a 70m rope, in the alpine... you'd better be prepared to bivi there.