billcoe Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Pleading with the CC.com brain trust. How do you guys get out an old rusty steel 3/8" bolt so that you can drill the hole larger and put in a big-assed stainless steel monster bolt? ps, big-assed crowbar didn't do it in this instance. (full sided American made 2 footer). The threads didn't want to allow the nut to be tightened up enough to use a modified Lost arrow either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Just break/cut it, push it in, epoxy over it and put the new one somewhere nearby would be what I would do. The alternative is a custom made puller - look on ST I think for photos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 http://supertopo.com/forumsearch.php?ftr=bolt+puller Somewhere in there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 Steve Grossman has some interesting designs. For them to work, they all appear to hinge on the stud NOT stripping out. The pic you show will probably make some big marks in the rock unless there is something under the bolts there. Actually, I have much better "hanger" for this application than the one in the picture somewhere in the basement, but I'm wondering if it won't just strip the thread and leave a screwed up stud stuck in the rock anyway. I probably should share it with Grossman as the pull would be more direct and work better in his design. He should go to the hardware store and get a lifting eye. pic from the internet, not what I have. Think something like this but it's internally threaded so it threads onto a stud. I could thread it on and pry straight out with a pry bar. I could get enough force to either get the bolt out, or the threads stripped..... I need to take a pic and try to use it. For this spot I'm thinking, I actually already drilled a new bolt/chain combo off to the side when I failed at cranking the stud out with a 2' crowbar, so getting the stud out is superfluous except as a learning exercise. Thanks for sharing JH. I didn't want to torch the stud with acetylene/oxygen to detemper it for drilling or just melting the metal as I would be afraid of somehow making the rock brittle and fragile. However, I have no knowledge on that. I suppose any effect like that would be localized to a small area of the rock if it occurred at all. Anyone else have any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Bill, I think maybe the botton plate is separate in that picture and stays in place against the rock to protect it; but I can't tell that for sure. Not sure why the threads are so short - seems like you'd need fully threaded bolts for it to pull a bolt all the way out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 Nice catch on both points. This is what I have. (from internet) In Grossmans design, replacing his hanger with this would be a more direct pull. Maybe back it up with a Grade 8 jam nut on top once the stud threads through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 That looks real nice - and it's threaded? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 Yes, clear through it. I had been thinking it would be perfect for an overhang, but can see that if I rotated my thinking 180 degrees it would be perfect for this as well. ...if it doesn't strip the thread. Maybe I'll try it out tonight instead of draining a full bottle of 2000 Bordeaux like last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanb Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 This may be a stupid question due to the hardness of metals in bolts or something but assuming you are in an area that allows power tools can you just drill the old bolt out of its hole with a normal drill bit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 Commonly the old bolts were 12l14 materiel medium carbon steel, difficult to drill 3" down with a hand drill hanging on a cliff I would imagine. Probably not impossible. The Rockwell is @ B84 or so. I suppose it might be do-able. Where's Mark the machinist for this one. That is probably the 2nd thing to try if the threads strip upon yoinkage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) The hardness of the material isnt so much the hard part- as much as staying directly on the stud/bolt as you drill along its length. The rock as compared to the steel is soft and will allow the bit to wander off the bolt and into the rock. Compounded with the fact you have a drill bit sticking out that far and will bend and want to wander some regardless. Even on a machine drilling a 3.0 bolt out of a hole would be tricky. Material hardness in that Rockwell range can be drilled with a "normal" drill bit with ease- assuming power tools were used with a good feed/speed and some lube. Low rpms (<600 or less) and as much pressure as you can muster without breaking the bit, a little squirt of lube- you should be set. Hand drilling- better have some time on your hands... The photo above is a pretty trick set-up. I dont think it needs to extract the bolt the full length from the hole. It should only need to travel maybe a quarter to half inch to break the bolt loose and would then be easy to pry the rest of the way out. You could make that assembly from aluminum to eliminate some weight. With a thicker cross section where the bolts thread thru, you could reduce the top plate considerably, and then the lower plate quarter inch thick would likely suffice. Edited July 8, 2009 by Patriot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenderfour Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 I thought about drilling a fresh hole beside a broken bolt, then chisel over to the bolt. You should be able to chisel the old bolt out and repair the larger hole with epoxy. I didn't do this because it seemed like too much work and would leave more of a mess than I currently had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 Thanks Patriot. I would think that a portable power drill might do it then. The rock might help guide (and dull) the bit. Some more Steve Grossman magic: Grossman also postulates that having the entire rock cone blowout is a possibility.....that would be a hell of a mess.(insert sad face here) Getting back to Josephs first point of break and epoxy patch:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 And to those of you still using steel 5 pieces around here in the Pac NW despite my ravings, here's one I copied and posted from one of those ST links JH posted: dudes says it was only in 10 years in desert sandstone!! Still called a Rawl 5 piece. This rusty specimen was apparently a shiny new Powers 5 piece not all that long ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberdinka Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I swear somewhere on this website http://www.bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm these guys talk about drilling out old 3/8" bolts using a $70 12mm diamond tipped drill bit, a powerful drill and a 5-gallon sprayer of water. Something like 5 minutes a bolt? Sounds like a real pain in the ass. Reading that webpage will waste your entire day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Bill - that rig of Grossman's is the one I was thinking of... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemp22 Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 So Bill, you'll have to share eventually: where is the offending bolt that you're replacing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 So Bill, you'll have to share eventually: where is the offending bolt that you're replacing? http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2116811;#2116811 Top of Jack of Hearts/Silver Bullet Jeff. I'm actually considering it's best to just leave it there to share with others how f*ing durable and strong these old rusty things actually are. I was very surprised how much so. Now, any one who thinks they are shit can go try to pull this lone errant stud and see what they think. I beefed up the ones that had 2 old rusty bolts at video as the link details.....but I still wish folks would just tie into a tree before going to clip as they'd be less likely to slide off and then have a back up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemp22 Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 cool bill - i hadn't seen that other thread. it's a good idea. I haven't been out there in a while, but remember thinking a lot of those anchors could use some love. I've got a ~5' pry bar if you think it'd help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 cool bill - i hadn't seen that other thread. it's a good idea. I haven't been out there in a while, but remember thinking a lot of those anchors could use some love. I've got a ~5' pry bar if you think it'd help. Thanks Jeff. I have more firepower too as my friend Keith Litchfield made me a custom pry bar @ 30 years ago that is still kicking ass and taking names, but as Steve Grossman pointed out....at some point, the rock could easily blow out into a large deep cone shape if one yanks too hard. For me, the original reason for removal would be to drill the hole deeper and stick in a bigger bolt. In this particular case, when I couldn't budge this one, I just put in a new one next to the existing stud @6" or so...so leaving the stud isn't an issue. I still am left wondering what kind of force would it take to destroy the rock permanently or if the stud would come out first? Perhaps, if this is going to be a learning experiencing so as to eventually replace other old rusty 3/8" steel wedge anchors, drilling the old out might be the first action. I'm leaning towards leaving it though. I was very pleasantly surprised at how strong that old bolt was, it is in theoretically the worst possible placement for longevity (on a dead flat table top so that water pools and will run right into hole and stay pooled inside right next to the bolt). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 cool bill - i hadn't seen that other thread. it's a good idea. I haven't been out there in a while, but remember thinking a lot of those anchors could use some love. I've got a ~5' pry bar if you think it'd help. Thanks Jeff. I have more firepower too as my friend Keith Litchfield made me a custom pry bar @ 30 years ago that is still kicking ass and taking names, but as Steve Grossman pointed out....at some point, the rock could easily blow out into a large deep cone shape if one yanks too hard. For me, the original reason for removal would be to drill the hole deeper and stick in a bigger bolt. In this particular case, when I couldn't budge this one, I just put in a new one next to the existing stud @6" or so...so leaving the stud isn't an issue. I still am left wondering what kind of force would it take to destroy the rock permanently or if the stud would come out first? Perhaps, if this is going to be a learning experiencing so as to eventually replace other old rusty 3/8" steel wedge anchors, drilling the old out might be the first action. I'm leaning towards leaving it though. I was very pleasantly surprised at how strong that old bolt was, it is in theoretically the worst possible placement for longevity (on a dead flat table top so that water pools and will run right into hole and stay pooled inside right next to the bolt). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberdinka Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Found It http://www.bolt-products.com/SustainableBolting.htm More equipment for you to collect! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_noggin Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Automotive tie rod buster and hammer put new bolt close to the old one. You can get one cheep at Harbor freight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 16, 2009 Author Share Posted July 16, 2009 Automotive tie rod buster and hammer put new bolt close to the old one. You can get one cheep at Harbor freight Are you saying, Mr Head, to just break it off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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