ivan Posted April 2, 2009 Author Posted April 2, 2009 bad idea... all of a sudden you just skyrocketed your fall factor. assuming that that piece can take an upward pull, that is. either way, it's not good. i've hear/read stories of people falling on the next placement and welding that clovehitch to the biner. makes sense - i didn't do it this trip mostly b/c, when it was windy, i was out of my head enough to figure clove-hitching certainly wasn't a problem for the haul line, but potentially wierd for the lead - i settled for pulling up a good 5 meters or so of rope at a time and clipping it to my harness - at any rate, being on a bolt ladder in that situation is at least very comforting, and pretty much exactly why i figured doing this route as my first solo wall kinda thing made sense - it does certainly make for some good mental images - being 30 feet above your last piece and w/ god knows how much slack in the system , but totally stoked on the bolts feelz kewl sounds like 2 such prusik connection points for a long lead would be about right? that's usually the # i carry for emergencies on the back of my harness already... Quote
underworld Posted April 2, 2009 Posted April 2, 2009 sounds like you had it dialed...enough! add another prussik into the mix for: maybe your second placement or so to attach to the lead line in order to keep your anchor 'upsidedown'. that is....in case it gets suddently waited upwards from a fall later on in the pitch, the biners and all the gear will be already pulilng in the right direction and possibility of crossloading the biners is lessened. you can add a screamer into this whole thing to give some dynamic to the belay. (maybe i'll draw another picture) everything changes if you have a big pig you're hauling that can be used as counterweight for a dynamic belay. Quote
Moof Posted April 2, 2009 Posted April 2, 2009 (edited) Ivan rebelaying periodically on the way up will keep the slack from running through your self-belay device. Heavy rubberbands girth hitched will do it the trick quite well or use longer skinny slings so they can ride up clean in a fall. Basically the same sort of rebelaying underworld is talking about to isolate around sharp edges, but for a different purpose. would clove-hitching the lead line into a good piece in route work just as well? or would it be somehow more difficult to clean the pitch later on? Ivan, Leaving cloves behind has to be done carefully, as it is possible in a fall to pin the knot against any sharp bulge above the piece and cut the rope (so inspect for sharp bugles, duh). Alpine butterfly's can be preferable for this sort of thing, as if the knot is cut against the wall the rest of the knot still holds and you don't die (not immediately anyway). Alpine butterfingers are also easier to untie than a really cinched up clove (largely becuase I'm fat as fuck). Rebelaying around a sharp edge is a good idea, and the only time I usually rebelay, but you want to alipine butterfly into a slammer piece right before as well as the one right after the edge/roof/wtf so that neither jugging nor falling load the rope against the edge (good places for screamers due to the fall factor issue). Rubber bands do 2 things for you. As stated they keep the fall factor low, so are preferable except in the case of sharp edges. Second, as you mention it makes cleaning easier with rubber bands. If you can't clean them on rap, they just break when you start jugging. Usually they stay stuck to the rope so you aren't littering. Also, I hate getting to a rebelayed piece only to have to frig with the jugs. I usually have to get my weight on the piece to get the second jug on the rope and get the next section of rope snugged up (damn rope stretch...). It slows things down a lot for me. My $0.02 Anyone need a wall partner for a week in May? I'll even drive to the valley! Edited April 2, 2009 by Moof Quote
ivan Posted April 3, 2009 Author Posted April 3, 2009 Ivan, Leaving cloves behind has to be done carefully, as it is possible in a fall to pin the knot against any sharp bulge above the piece and cut the rope (so inspect for sharp bugles, duh). Alpine butterfly's can be preferable for this sort of thing, as if the knot is cut against the wall the rest of the knot still holds and you don't die (not immediately anyway). Alpine butterfingers are also easier to untie than a really cinched up clove (largely becuase I'm fat as fuck). Rebelaying around a sharp edge is a good idea, and the only time I usually rebelay, but you want to alipine butterfly into a slammer piece right before as well as the one right after the edge/roof/wtf so that neither jugging nor falling load the rope against the edge (good places for screamers due to the fall factor issue). Rubber bands do 2 things for you. As stated they keep the fall factor low, so are preferable except in the case of sharp edges. Second, as you mention it makes cleaning easier with rubber bands. If you can't clean them on rap, they just break when you start jugging. Usually they stay stuck to the rope so you aren't littering. Also, I hate getting to a rebelayed piece only to have to frig with the jugs. I usually have to get my weight on the piece to get the second jug on the rope and get the next section of rope snugged up (damn rope stretch...). It slows things down a lot for me. My $0.02 Anyone need a wall partner for a week in May? I'll even drive to the valley! when in may moof (such wonderful alliteration)? i might well be able to make it work and, from reading your text, i'm woefully stupid in most respects and could stand just to see some superfly skillz in action Quote
Moof Posted April 3, 2009 Posted April 3, 2009 Ivan, Wonderful alliteration? Damnit I can too read! I basically am required to take a week off by the end of May, so I am flexible at the moment, but was thinking the week of the 10th, but anything from April 20th to the end of May is open. Basic plan is to drive Saturday, bivying just outside the park. Spend 2 more days getting a couple pitches fixed and humping loads to the base, and then blast. Pace will be intentionally modest. Mideast Crisis is my hope, but I'm interested in anything in the C2+/5.7 category less than 20 or so pitches. I have 2 ledges, a spare haul bag, and all that sort of crap. Quote
JosephH Posted April 3, 2009 Posted April 3, 2009 Moof has it exactly right, cloves can cut, the alpine butterfly is what you want for that purpose, but it has it's downsides as underworld states. I sometimes butterfly into a 'sacrificial' piece that won't hold up and which is set just above a 'real' point of pro. But in general you're better off just rebelaying with a long skinny sling or rubberband. Edit: P.S. It pays to make sure your alpine butterfly knots are well-dressed, this isn't a knot to be sloppy with. Quote
denalidave Posted April 3, 2009 Posted April 3, 2009 Yer basic head exploding stuff... Exactly! Quote
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