PLC Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Here's your answer: do nothing. The dad pinching his kid was an asshole, but even if he's beating the kid at home he's not really harming his kids as much as we've all been lead to believe... People are much more resilient that you think - numerous studies have shown that the vast majority of abused kids suffer no long term consequences. We get over things, it's just what people do. That doesn't excuse a parent for beating their kid - its still a moral outrage, even if the kid can shake it off. I'm qualified to offer these opinions, from a personal level, because my parents beat the shit out of my and my seven siblings when we were kids. We all turned out fine. Now I have two kids of my own and I've never even had to raise my voice to either one. The truth is that hitting your kids, yelling at your kids, pinching your kids is almost never done out of a desire to "discipline" - it's done because the parent is angry or out of control or self-obsessed. If your kid is acting up in the video store, don't pinch the kid - calmly leave and punish them appropriately in a dignified, rational manner like an adult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 I'm watching batman begins with my 8 yo son last night (is that child abuse? Why would that be child abuse? Ironically enough, it's because of activist non-disciplinarians like yourself that this kid got pinched repeatedly. The dad is likely one do give him a good swat at home, and probably would prefer to do the same in public since the key to successful discipline is consistency. Since wackos like you would call CPS on him, he's forced to pinch repeatedly instead of giving a one good swat that likely would have put an end to his pissy behavior. The kid was not misbehaving. Not that I could see...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 I'm watching batman begins with my 8 yo son last night (is that child abuse? Why would that be child abuse? Ironically enough, it's because of activist non-disciplinarians like yourself that this kid got pinched repeatedly. The dad is likely one do give him a good swat at home, and probably would prefer to do the same in public since the key to successful discipline is consistency. Since wackos like you would call CPS on him, he's forced to pinch repeatedly instead of giving a one good swat that likely would have put an end to his pissy behavior. The kid was not misbehaving. Not that I could see...... the operative term here is "not that I could see" mind your own fucking business Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 yeah --- no kidding. at that age my son was capable of all sorts of mischief. ok he still is. but there were definitely times when what he was doing wrong might not be obvious to you or anyone else. seriously kevbone, this is awfully judgemental coming from a liberal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telemarker Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Pinching your kid excessively as a form of discipline is not appropriate, especially to the point where it is painful to the child. Using a belt for discipline is old-school and flirts with 4th degree assault. In my line of work, I see welts in the shape of the buckle all the time, and the offending parent gets charged and hauled off to jail. If they're illegal, they then run the possibility of being deported for the next ten years. Was it worth it? If you ever suspect abuse/neglect you have to call it in. What if upon further investigation the child has bruises up and down his back? What if investigators find that the same parent is "disciplining" their 6 month old infant? "My parents used to beat the shit out of us..." just doesn't fly anymore...sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Pinching your kid excessively as a form of discipline is not appropriate, especially to the point where it is painful to the child. Using a belt for discipline is old-school and flirts with 4th degree assault. In my line of work, I see welts in the shape of the buckle all the time, and the offending parent gets charged and hauled off to jail. If they're illegal, they then run the possibility of being deported for the next ten years. Was it worth it? If you ever suspect abuse/neglect you have to call it in. What if upon further investigation the child has bruises up and down his back? What if investigators find that the same parent is "disciplining" their 6 month old infant? "My parents used to beat the shit out of us..." just doesn't fly anymore...sorry. cool, and let's also call CPS for parents who take illicit drugs, especially those who post public inquiries a about which drug is "better" - cocaine or heroine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telemarker Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 cool, and let's also call CPS for parents who take illicit drugs, especially those who post public inquiries a about which drug is "better" - cocaine or heroine. Entirely appropriate when you take the larger picture into context. Rarely is an addiction to drugs not accompanied by a mental health disorder of some type that yes, would put a child at risk. Should mom breastfeed while high on meth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 yeah --- no kidding. at that age my son was capable of all sorts of mischief. ok he still is. but there were definitely times when what he was doing wrong might not be obvious to you or anyone else. seriously kevbone, this is awfully judgemental coming from a liberal IMO it is inappropriate to bring pain to a child ever for any reason. So it does not matter if the kid was misbehaving (what ever that means). The dad was in the wrong……. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 any kind of extreme can be found...do you have your own children? Situation... 4 1/2 year old boy/ 18 month old toddler... 4 1/2 yo keeps pushing toddler down...parents are extremely patient, keep trying to explain that pushing said toddler down is not appropriate, will likely get child hurt, "do unto others...blah blah"...to no avail...now 4 year old has upped the ante...and has begun pushing toddler DOWN THE STAIRS...at first, only the last step, but its onto hardwood floor... Parent now is worried about serious damage to the toddler (read: concussions, split lips, possible death if falling into brick mantle, etc. etc. etc.) and is no longer willing to "exercise patience". Parent explains carefully "Son, I've explained this to you why you can't do this. You continue to do it. The very next time you do it, i will be giving you a spanking across the back of your leg"...Parent asks child "do you understand?" "what do i mean?" and gets satisfactory explanations and descriptions so there is NO DOUBT that everything is crystal clear... 4 y o decides to "see what happens"...toddler gets launched by brother...4 y o shorts come down and SMACK...pushing has now ceased and never happened again... Children are not stupid and need to have FIRM boundaries Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telemarker Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 yeah --- no kidding. at that age my son was capable of all sorts of mischief. ok he still is. but there were definitely times when what he was doing wrong might not be obvious to you or anyone else. seriously kevbone, this is awfully judgemental coming from a liberal IMO it is inappropriate to bring pain to a child ever for any reason. So it does not matter if the kid was misbehaving (what ever that means). The dad was in the wrong……. Not sure if you need to determine if it was wrong or not. Obviously you were uncomfortable with what you witnessed, so it never hurts to call it in to report it. It doesn't necessarily mean that it will be investigated, in fact it probably won't since you don't have a name or license number, and on the surface it doesn't look like abuse/neglect. But still, the family may have a LONG, chronic history that heightens the risk to the children. You never know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 STUKACH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telemarker Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 any kind of extreme can be found...do you have your own children? Situation... 4 1/2 year old boy/ 18 month old toddler... 4 1/2 yo keeps pushing toddler down...parents are extremely patient, keep trying to explain that pushing said toddler down is not appropriate, will likely get child hurt, "do unto others...blah blah"...to no avail...now 4 year old has upped the ante...and has begun pushing toddler DOWN THE STAIRS...at first, only the last step, but its onto hardwood floor... Parent now is worried about serious damage to the toddler (read: concussions, split lips, possible death if falling into brick mantle, etc. etc. etc.) and is no longer willing to "exercise patience". Parent explains carefully "Son, I've explained this to you why you can't do this. You continue to do it. The very next time you do it, i will be giving you a spanking across the back of your leg"...Parent asks child "do you understand?" "what do i mean?" and gets satisfactory explanations and descriptions so there is NO DOUBT that everything is crystal clear... 4 y o decides to "see what happens"...toddler gets launched by brother...4 y o shorts come down and SMACK...pushing has now ceased and never happened again... Children are not stupid and need to have FIRM boundaries I don't think anyone would argue with you that kids need firm boundaries. And RCW 9A.16.100 says you can spank your kids. Police detectives I work with always refer to this. It's understood that anything beyond a temporary mark is bordering in assault and at times it's subjective, and much of the time depends on the history of the family with LE and CPS. Why, as a parent would you flirt with that thin line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Telemarker - Of course your area has a long traditon of proper determination: linky Kevbone - I know many well educated )people who do consider your decision to not vaccinate your kid(s as exceedingly irresponsible and one that in a perfect world would never be allowed to occur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telemarker Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Telemarker - Of course your area has a long traditon of proper determination: linky Kevbone - I know many well educated )people who do consider your decision to not vaccinate your kid(s as exceedingly irresponsible and that in a perfect world would never be allowed to occur. PP, CA/N is not a perfect science, and mistakes are made no matter which side of the crest. Seattle Fatalities Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 no mark other than a slight reddish tinge that disappeared within 2 minutes...I will sit down with anyone and discuss my parenting...there is nothing i have to hide...have at it... Like i said, its very few and far between when spankings are handed out and its after all other alternatives have been exhausted... in this example the welfare of the toddler was at stake and we were desparate to end the behavior. I understand that there were underlying causes, jealousy of older brother/younger sister, no sense of control, no sense of power, maybe a need for more individual attention. And we worked on those (and are still working on them) but this doesn't change the fact that this particular behavior needed to STOP NOW due to the risk to the toddler.... FWIW, the threat of the spank is rarely rarely used...its done with an open hand across the back of the leg in a visible spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telemarker Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 And you have the law backing you in your decision to use corporal punishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Of course the Wenatchee case holds a special place in the history of such incidents. Given the experts fuck up so badly....I would want Kevbone in the middle of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 its done with an open hand across the back of the leg in a visible spot. Caining? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Telemarker, a friend of mine who resided in Wenatchee at the time told me that at the end of the day it was at least somewhat accepted that there had in fact been some real sexual abuse of some children, but that the authorities had botched the investigation and the witch hunt was mishandled. To a degree, he said those who read the Pulitizer Prize winning series in the Seattle papers were victims of a second witch hunt. Does this match your memory at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 And you have the law backing you in your decision to use corporal punishment. this must make your job somewhat difficult since it is not a black and white world and very gray...there is obviously stuff that is flatass wrong, but then there are the borderline conditions...tough tough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 MAtt - I once discussed this with a guy in Portland he told me you were copmpletley wrong. Hey Rumr was that you memory too? Actually i never read the Seattle Paper articles..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 its done with an open hand across the back of the leg in a visible spot. Caining? kevbone...i'd like to wonder what you would do in this case?? Would you let your toddler get hurt, maybe permanently, so as not risk "caining" your child? The point of the back of the leg is its all muscle...yeah, it smarts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 MAtt - I once discussed this with a guy in Portland he told me you were copmpletley wrong. Hey Rumr was that you memory too? Actually i never read the Seattle Paper articles..... I just figured if there were truly that many kids and adults involved why did it take so long to come out????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 kevbone...i'd like to wonder what you would do in this case?? Rudy, I dont what I would do...but I can tell you what I would not do. Teach my child that if you hurt him I hurt you. I will admit that your scenario is not an easy one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 well...when permanent brain injury is a potential issue, i'm no longer gonna exercise patience and i'm going to stop the behavior immediately...i'm telling you we tried literally everything short of tying him down...i just couldn't risk it... haven't had a problem since, but i honestly can't say its cuz of the spanking as we've also made dedicated efforts to devote more one on one time to him...it could be that he's old enough now that the problem is self-corrected...i just don't know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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