chinese climb Everest with Olympic torch

[minx]

so youtube is a reliable source of information? i especially love a documentary from the 1940s to make judgement from...

[mike1]

so youtube is a reliable source of information? i especially love a documentary from the 1940s to make judgement from...

Ya right, we all know there was no such thing as propaganda back then...

[mazegirl]

Here are just a several examples to show what the Western Media did:

 

CNN:

 

 

 

 

During the interview with Chinese Ambassador, CTV inserted the video clip of Nepali policemen to "demonstrate" that the Chinese Ambassador was lying.

 

 

 

 

Times

 

Edited May 12, 2008 by mazegirl

[pink]

where do you live missy?

[minx]

in her own little world apparently

[dougd]

Yes, it was John Muir I misquoted. I was very close. Apologies to Mr Muir. A proper version below...

 

"Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you and the storms their energy, while care will drop off like autumn leaves." Our National Parks, pg.56

 

d

[mike1]

in her own little world apparently

where Tibet asked to be invaded...

[dougd]

A couple more Muir quotes:

 

MOUNT HOOD

 

"There stood Mount Hood in all the glory of the alpenglow, looming intensely high, beaming with intelligence and so impressive that one was overawed as if suddenly brought before some superior being newly arrived from the sky." Steep Trails, pg.211

 

 

MOUNT RAINIER

 

"The Mount Rainier Forest reserve should be made a national park and guarded while yet its bloom is on; for if in the making of the West Nature had what we call parks in mind, -- places for rest, inspiration, and prayers, -- this Rainier region must surely be one of them." Our National Parks, pg.30

 

d

[mazegirl]

I am one of the Chinese minority just like the tibetans and I came to Canada several years ago because I'm "not" a Chinese nationalist. I just like my culture and history as you like yours. I am not against the Tibetan's right (Who are my sisters and brothers) to choose independance as I am not fond of Everything the Chinese Govt does; but it is not true that all tibetans desire independance which is being encouraged by the Monk's Class and Extremists and independance movement as supported by western agencies. I was a minority also and we have been able to benefit from improved services, medical, education and freedom from taxes. Minority cultures in China are not limited by the one child family rule due to potential declining of these ethnic populations. Yes some of the gains came with a price under the Chinese political system, but the benefits today may not have existed under the Monk's feudal class system. In conclusion please remember that I'm not in agreement with all that the Chinese govt. does or has done in the past and that is why I'm here.

 

I like Canada and I'm proud That I'm a Canadian Citizen too.

Edited May 12, 2008 by mazegirl

[fear_and_greed]

Why are you in this country if China is so great? Please take your Goebbels/Bush proproganda trash elsewhere.?v=YEzTtBvYATk

[dmuja]

OMFG

 

Yes, your right, not every Tibetan desires independence, and specifically, some of the recent generation of Tibetans who have been brainwashed by Chinese propaganda and indoctrination techniques that the PRC passes off as "education". Interestingly though, even the much maligned "Dalai" (you know the guy who leads the "dalai clique"?) is not even seeking independence - hasn't been for many years. 'course, you'd never know that though if you simply buy the Chinese brand of "news" put out by the PRC. Face the truth, China RAPED the Tibetans in much the same way that Japan RAPED the people of Nanking. Its what happens when people in positions of power are still under the influence of greed, anger and delusion.

 

HH the Dalai Lama (being an honest and self aware person) has always admitted that Tibet was in need of modernization and social evolution - admitting it even to the detriment of his political position! He would welcome much of what China claims to want for Tibet, if it really just wanted what was good for Tibet. Unfortunately however, that is not the case. Has China ever admitted any wrongs with respect to its invasion and occupation of Tibet? Of course not. China does not, and can not understand the Dalai Lama or his role in Tibetan culture, it does not understand Tibetan culture and Tibetan Buddhism and therefore it views both as a threat that needs to be wiped out.

 

Things everyone should understand about communism, it is as close to evil as we get as human beings. Its not different than Nazism, fascism, nationalism, militarism or totalitarianism of any kind. It is about control, domination, force, indoctrination. Freedom is its enemy. "Peace" in a system like this means conforming and staying silent. China is putting on a good face for the world (especially these days) but its government is pure evil.

 

PS - "Tiananmen Square" 'nough said?

Edited May 12, 2008 by dmuja

[Hugh Conway]

So foreigners can ask Tibetans what they think without fear of persecution and Tibetans can answer foreigners without fear of persecution?

 

News to me.

[AlpineK]

Tienanmen Square

 

Now there was an opportunity the Chinese government had to allow peaceful political dissent that they failed badly.

 

During my time in Tibet I did meet one Han Chinese fellow who was a great guy. He was working for the military but hated it. He knew that there was nothing he could do without serious repercussions. I feel sorry for folks like him too.

[mazegirl]

dmuja, I am from Nanking and feel really hurt by your comments comparing Tibet with the Nanking Massacre which killed around 300,000 innocent people in my home town during WWII. This is the end of the discussion for me.

 

http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?t=68073&sid=ce0b20590dd445725153c83b5ef21c7f

 

You may want to read this

[dmuja]

 

Feck, the Dalai Lama not only has genuine sympathy for the unfortunate folks like the guy you mentioned, but even more so, for those Chinese who wish him harm. Having practiced Tibetan Buddhism, and having met the guy, I can tell you that part of his daily routine is to actually feel emotional empathy for his enemies. This is part of his religious practice and he deeply believes in it.

 

I say this not to make him out to be anything special, but rather to point out that when one considers the "Tibetan issue" that they should consider that, on the one hand, we have a superpower that glorifies lies and the use of destructive power vs a people and culture who for the most part embrace the opposite of that.

[dmuja]

 

mazegirl, I did not intend to offend you and if I did I apologize for that, sincerely.

 

In a political discussion, such comparisons do come up from time to time though. I have met men, women and children who were hunted down by the Chinese military in Tibet. The histories of the brutal invasion and occupation Nanking and of Tibet will not be forgotten.

[montanapup]

 

http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/bloggingbeijing/index.html#028029

[Gary_Yngve]

dmuja, I am from Nanking and feel really hurt by your comments comparing Tibet with the Nanking Massacre which killed around 300,000 innocent people in my home town during WWII. This is the end of the discussion for me.

 

I see, so when your people are killed, it's bad, but when someone else's people are killed, it's ok. I don't give an f who killed who when, but if you want to call yourself civilized in the 21st century, you're not going to oppress/kill an ethnic group, as the Chinese govt is and has been doing.

[Gary_Yngve]

mazegirl, since you've been bombarding us with articles/youtube, can you explain away this?

 

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1350794/posts

[pink]

that's fucked up

[mazegirl]

Let's tell the other side of the story. It's not from the media, not from the government, but the truth from the HISTORY.

 

The history of Tibet begins with the rule of Namri Songzen, who first

attempted to unify this land. His son Songtsan Gampo united parts of the

Yarlung river valley, and in 640 Common Era, he married Princess Wencheng,

the niece of the Han Chinese emperor Taizong. Ever since, marriage and

brother- and sisterhood, have bounded the Hans and the Tibetans. In 1290,

Tibet appeared on the Chinese map when Kublai Khan established the Yuan

Dynasty of a united China. As time goes on, no matter how the country has

changed its rulers, how dynasties have altered their names, Tibet has always

been on this Map of China.

 

The question came that whether the Chinese invaded Tibet in 1951; the answer

is, NO. For the Chinese mainland and Tibet have been unified ever since

1290, which is earlier even than the discovery of the New World in 1498.

 

Tibet had never been a free land before 1959.Its traditionally hierarchical

social structure consists of the aristocrats, the monks, and the slaves who

were 95% of the population. In that society, peasants were traded as goods;

kids were beheaded for worshiping purposes; women were gang raped as a treat

to the guests. When in 1949, the Chinese communist Party claimed the

victory of the civil war and lunched the policy of "free Tibet, eliminating

the serfdom", monks and aristocrats were infuriated since they not only lost

their land and wealth, but also the social privileges that they had enjoyed

for thousands of years. This partially contributes to the breaking of the

riots.

 

The second question: is the Tibetan people really suffering under the

existing government's rule? The answer is No. According to Tibet

Environmental Watch, an organization related to His Holiness the Dalai Lama,

the average Tibetans' life expectancy has almost doubled from 35.5 to 67

years old over the past half century. I personally have been to Tibet several times. When I was there talking with local Tibetans, they told me that in

spite of the existence of some censorship, the government has improved their

infrastructures and the Medicare system dramatically. According to the data

, over 200 million US dollars has been invested to build schools, sewage

system and public transportation; more than 1.8 billion RMB has been spent

on setting up clinics and training medical workers. Apart from medical care,

a social security system is also being built up in the region to take

better care of the aged and retirees. Were it not this improvement, but

suppression and suffering, how could the life expectancy DOUBLED in only 50

years? Far from being exploited, the Tibetans actually enjoy some degree of

privileges that the Han Chinese don't, including zero income tax for the

Tibetan peasants, no birth control in the Zang region and a lower college

admission requirements. Along with the support of Tibetan modernization, the

Han Chinese also made a huge effort to preserve the religion. The

government has invested substantial amount of capital to rebuild temples and

monasteries. To respect the tradition of monk's high social rank, the

government also subsides them with Han Chinese's tax.

 

The third question is: are the Han Chinese people committing cultural

genocides? The answer is also NO. If the presence of Han Chinese in Tibet

was a cultural genocide, then should the presence of African-American,

Hispanic, and Caucasian culture be the genocide of the Native American

Culture? If the presence of Han Chinese in Tibet was genocide of the Tibetan

culture, should the western corporations including McDonald's, KFC and

Addidas that are currently opened on the street of Lasha also be called a

Tibitan culture invasion? Indeed, this is a trend of culture co-existence

under the frame of globalization and information explosion, not a so-called

cultural genocide.

 

Now here are our questions for His Holiness, Dalai Lama. We are wondering,

why you, the 14th reincarnation of Buddha of compassion, the highest and

most respected spiritual leader of Tibetan people, did not free your people

from the suffering of serfdom 50 years ago when they were traded as animals?

Why you, as the 1989 Nobel peace price winner, refused to condemn the Iraq

wars and advocated the protest against the Olympic torch as a tool of

gaining political rights??

 

Extremist! Extremist! We cry to you. Please Don't hate us because our skin

color, and different dialects. Please don't hate us because we abolished

serfdom system. Please stop the riots and the killing because we are indeed

brothers and sisters ever since 1290. Please stop snatching the Olympic

torch because sports have nothing to do with politics.

 

America! America! the country that a lots Chinese study and live in and love so much, We also cry to you. Please stop this misunderstanding and bias toward China. Our government is not perfect, but it is the best that we could come up with. While we understand that some degree of censorship is good for such a big

country's stability, we are still trying to open the dialogue to be more

democratic. Please understand that China has opened its doors only for 28

years, which is merely nothing compared to US's 200-years' struggling for

democracy. Chinese government is not perfect, but it's not what the media

has portrayed. We would like to invite you to the Olympics, to our land and

see with your own eyes, how a modern China really is. To see that we are

not living under suppression; we are not living under fear. We are free

people on our land, in Tibet, and in Mainland China.

 

We invite you to cheer for the world's greatest athletes with us.

Peace Olympic 2008. Peace world 2008.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2008 by mazegirl

[dmuja]

 

I don't know which rumor would be more sad if it turned out to be true:

 

1) There are many Chinese nationals who are so blinded by their own racist and nationalistic fervor that they defend even their own repressive governments lies, propaganda and atrocities.

 

or

 

2) China has pulled out all stops in conducting its internet propaganda campaign against the Dalai Lama and the true history and culture of Tibet.

 

If someone told me that mazegirl was a Chinese sleeper cell agent I might now believe it!

[dmuja]

 

 

Tibetans are not allowed to study their own language in school.

 

Tibetans face racial discrimination in their own land.

 

Tibetan monks must publicly denounce the Dalai Lama or face possible imprisonment - meaning torture.

 

Tibetan religious centers are control by the Tibetan "PRC" and must teach doctrine according to the communist government. They are not free to teach the heart of many subtle teachings of Tibetan Buddhism.

 

Tibetan's from all walks of life, thousands, are currently held who knows where and for who knows how long - they are presumed to be in prisons and likely being tortured.

 

Tibets Panchen Lama (second most significant religious person in Tibetan Buddhism) was kidnapped by the Chinese when he was a young child and may have been killed. The Chinese have since substituted their own "Panchen Lama" who amazingly is pro PRC!

 

Tibetans who keep photos of the Dalai Lama are subject to imprisonment and possible torture.

 

Tibetans are taught only the Chinese version of the history of Tibet.

 

Tibetans have been butalized at the hands of the Chinese occupiers including: rapes of nuns, children forced to execute their parents, monks forced to rape nuns in public, public humiliation of all sorts.

 

Tibetan religious centers, ancient and sacred temples, monasteries, cultural treasure have been destroyed by the thousands.

 

Tibet has/had its own culture, its own language, its own religion its own governmental system(s) which were no more (much less actually) aristocratic and elitist than most throughout China's history.

 

Tibetans are not free to speak what they truly believe. They are not free to practice Buddhism they way it has been passed down the many centuries. They are not free to study or teach things that are outside of the PRC party doctrine.

 

In short, Tibetans are an oppressed second class race at best in their own land and they are losing their identity in terms of their religion and culture. I think its fair to say they face culture genocide at the hands of the Peoples Republic of CHina.

[mazegirl]

dmuja,

 

I strongly suggest that you need to go visit Tibet, China. to see the facts instead of spreading lies/rumors here, for example: The truth is ----- all students in Tibet are taught in both Tibetan and Chinese. all official documents in Tibet are written in both languages too. Tibetans are allowed to study their own language in school.

furthermore, ~7 million Han Chinese speak Tibetan.

Edited May 13, 2008 by mazegirl

[pink]

if it were all peaches and cream you would still live in china.