Half ropes & crevasse rescue

[mike1]

I’ve been thinking about this for a while and I thought I’d go ahead and post it to let you all shoot holes in it.

 

What if I said that it's possible that carrying a double rope for a 2 person NC trav is the all around ‘safest’ practice. Now I’m talking a 2 person team only here. Okay, don't shoot me yet.

 

If the follower ties into the end of one rope and carries the second and the lead climber ties in and coils the rest. That this will leave more than enough rope for each to quickly rig a mechanical advantage in a crevasse rescue scenario. If you haven't practiced your two person team crevasse rescue then you don't know how difficult it can be.

 

Some obvious cons are the added weight of the second rope on the team and the extra rope management for any rock routes...

 

Some obvious pros are full length rap’s, more dynamic rope system, less rope drag, more efficient crevasse rescue...

 

So you tell me... what’s wrong with this picture? Okay, let me have it!

Edited April 26, 2008 by Mikester

[counterfeitfake]

...nothing?

 

If you're only on glaciers you just don't need the second rope.

 

If you're crossing the glacier to get to a rock climb it's a perfectly good plan.

[fenderfour]

I'm assuming you will only be hauling on the one rope that the rescuer has coiled?

 

Rope stretch will make it difficult to haul. In the end, my answer is to let the bastard prusik out of the hole.

 

Look up "Kiwi Coil".

[Doug]

While in theory everything you state is valid, in a two person glacier travel scenario you inherently accept the risk of having a very difficult crevasse rescue. I would have personally used a two kiwi coil set up where both members could rig a slight mechanical advantage should the other fall in, but the first course of defense is for the one in the slot to prussik themselves out.

[ropegoat]

my only critique is that the second might have trouble accessing their rope and building the rescue setup as quickly:

Here's my perspective (I have performed two and three person crack rescue using one rope exclusively, I've never had a second rope at my disposal). I'm still learning, so this is by no means gospel.

1) i don't like having a full rope length kiwi coiled over my shoulder

2) in a crack rescue situation, digging another rope out of your backpack might be awkward.

3) if the second is tied into the end, the loaded strand must be attached to the secondary rope inorder to setup the Z-pulley. this seems like a pain (you'd be tying the secondary rope onto the loaded strand, probably with a friction knot- this seems sketchy to me), and to echo a previous comment, would add elongation to the system. this also adds another failure point to the system.

4) if the techincal rock/ice pitches warrant twin/half rope style then you are carrying two ropes anyway- if you are going to single rope the techincal pitches, you could carry a lighter 6-7mm static line for hauling, rescue, and rappel rather than a full weight 8-9mm dynamic line.

 

I thoroughly agree though- it's best to dig in and let your leader prussik their way out.

These are simply thoughts, I don't know any more than anyone else (and probably know less than most). This is a great discussion though, thanks to everyone!

Edited April 23, 2008 by ropegoat

[Climzalot]

In climbing, the safest option is not always the best. The "safest" thing would be to not leave the house, ever. After that, we all play a balancing act between efficiency, practicality, and safety. Standards for, and definitions of these things will vary from person to person based on personal biases, preferences, etc.

 

In your scenario I am not sure what you mean by "double" ropes. If you mean using two half or twin ropes, hauling and prusking on these ropes is a nuisance at best.

 

Personally I can't see how the advantages, if there are any, in having two ropes would outweigh the cost of carrying and having to deal with another rope.

 

Kiwi coiling is usually reserved for times when you intend to lengthen and shorten the rope often. Otherwise, the mountaineers coil is much easier to carry, access, and employ in a crevasse rescue scenario.

 

Obviously there are thousands scenarios and methods in climbing and mountaineering. Depending on your objective and aforementioned personal factors, the "best" strategy will probably change from outing to outing.

 

Personally, for two person teams on moderate glacier routes I prefer to use a single rope in the 9.0-9.2 range, or a half rope in the 8.5-8.8 range. For alpine ice and rock routes, I prefer using two half ropes. When approaching a multi-pitch rock or ice climb via a glacier route, I will use one of the half ropes for glacier travel.

 

Have fun and good luck.

[mike1]

If you're only on glaciers you just don't need the second rope.

Why did the climber cross the glacier?

I'm assuming you will only be hauling on the one rope that the rescuer has coiled?

 

Rope stretch will make it difficult to haul. In the end, my answer is to let the bastard prusik out of the hole.

 

Look up "Kiwi Coil".

No need to assume I'm doing anything. I'm only posing this as a discussion... add to it as you like, make it up as you go along.

 

If you are the climber with the entire other rope in your pack, then that’s your rescue system rope. If you’re the climber with the rest of the glacier rope in your pack or coiled, then that’s your rescue system rope. Kiwi coils aren’t too bad if you’re using an 8.5 half rope. That's what I was intending when I said double ropes.

 

I practiced this last year with a friend where he arrested me, pulled his pack off, set an anchor, pulled the rope from his pack, and rigged for rescue! You are right about the stretch, but it does work. Additionally, I recommend each climber carry a second tool. Try and place anything as an anchor while your ax is stuck in the snow holding the fallen. It’s easy to cut corners by ignoring how difficult a crevasse rescue could be, but in a Cascades Traverse where you’re in deep, you may not see another soul so it’s critical to get this right.

 

Personally I can't see how the advantages, if there are any, in having two ropes would outweigh the cost of carrying and having to deal with another rope.

The question comes from my thinking of a rope system that covers most aspects of climbing and traversing in an alpine environment like a multi day North Cascades Traverse, specifically for a two person team. Rock climbing, steep snow and ice climbing, glacier travel, descending and repelling. I was looking at specifically using doubles in the crevasse rescue scenario in order to discover the benefits or problems with it. And talk about different ways of using them in that situation.

 

This does bring up another common question though. How far apart do you travel on a glacier with a two person team? On a single 60 meter rope, tying in at 2/5ths and 3/5ths leaves about 30 to 35 feet between you and double that coiled on each climber - enough for each climber to drop a loop over the edge for the fallen climber to clip their pulley to for an instant 2:1. That’s a nice package deal, but not necessary. But let’s say that’s what you do and you coil a few in your hand. Now you’re only 10 to 15 feet apart. I’ve read where lengths between climbers as short as 10 feet or even less are suggested. Personally I prefer 40 to 50 feet, but that may be AFU. What do you think? Think about two climbers traversing the Chickamin from Dome to Gunsight where they'd be paralleling the cracks.

[JohnGo]

I've been carrying 40 meters of 8mm static cord for crevasse travel for a few years now. It weighs a bit over 3 lbs (compared to 8 lbs 10 oz for a 60m 10.0mm lead rope), is inexpensive, and works great. You don't need a dynamic rope for crevasse travel. Such a rope might work well for your proposed style of backcountry travel.

 

Read more on the Mazamas Tip of the Week pages:

http://www.mazamas.org/your/adventure/nw/try-a-short-static-rope-for-glacier-travel/

[mike1]

I've been carrying 40 meters of 8mm static cord for crevasse travel for a few years now. It weighs a bit over 3 lbs (compared to 8 lbs 10 oz for a 60m 10.0mm lead rope), is inexpensive, and works great. You don't need a dynamic rope for crevasse travel. Such a rope might work well for your proposed style of backcountry travel.

 

Read more on the Mazamas Tip of the Week pages:

http://www.mazamas.org/your/adventure/nw/try-a-short-static-rope-for-glacier-travel/

That’s good advice if you know you won’t be climbing anything that requires a belay.

[Climzalot]

The question comes from my thinking of a rope system that covers most aspects of climbing and traversing in an alpine environment like a multi day North Cascades Traverse, specifically for a two person team. Rock climbing, steep snow and ice climbing, glacier travel, descending and repelling.

 

On a long, multi-day traverse, I would be much more inclined to cut weight and simplify gear+systems, as long as I could still safely and efficiently accomplish my climbing goals.

 

With regard to the safety issues, to me it comes down to one question, can I quickly and safely carry out a crevasse rescue with one rope. In my mind, the answer is yes, and so in most cases, another rope is not needed, nor an advantage.

 

This does bring up another common question though. How far apart do you travel on a glacier with a two person team?

 

It depends! How big are the slots, how numerous are the slots, at what angle will you be engaging them, do you know how to manage a crevasse rescue with little or no rescue rope left over, how long is your rope, etc. Knowing when, why, and how to do these things is key, and I don't think there is one right answer that can apply to every situation.

 

On most of the volcano routes, about 40 to 50 feet seems about right to me. Rarely less than 30, never less than 20. You might as well be piggy-backing your partner with 10. I have used nearly the whole rope on a few occasions in Alaska. Both of us not going to the bottom was a lot more important than having a convenient rescue scenario.

 

Most of your discussion of systems mentions dropping a loop/2:1. Unless the hauler is super strong, and the fallen climber is super light, a 2:1 is going to be a lot of work, in many cases impossible.

 

The good old C to Z (3:1/5:1) seems to be the standard for two person rescues.

 

It never hurts to remember that the first job of the rope and of course the climbers using it, is to stay out of the hole. In ten years of traveling on glaciers, here and abroad, I haven't seen a climber on my rope go in more than waist deep. Now that I have said that, I am probably in for a deep, dark ride in the near future. Great.

 

Cheers and good luck.

 

[elliottwill]

I like the idea of carrying a short static cord, but I've seen 30m lengths of 8mm dynamic for sale by Beal and others as "trekking" ropes.

 

Beal Rando Rope at REI

 

Are these a viable option for crossing a glacier (not belaying steeps)? More specifically,

 

a) does 30m give you enough rope to stay safely apart and still haul your partner out? I'm thinking about a bad-case scenario where the crevasse would taper quickly, so your partner would be corked, and unable to get to self-rescue.

 

b) why do they sell these ropes as dynamic, if the stretch is bad for hauling? Why choose a 30m dynamic rope over 8mm static cord?

 

Thanks for the help.

Edited May 1, 2008 by elliottwill

[ivan]

the best way to answer any of these crevasse rescue questions is to go practice in a controlled environment - you're not going to (or at least shouldn't) trust any setup until you've played with it - have fun, put a shitload of ropes and pickets and what not into a sled, drag out into the middle of the nisqually this time of year and spend a day or two fucking around

 

experiment with:

- different sized ropes

- prusiks vs ascenders

- different mechancial setups for raising a climber

- self rescue

- self resuce w/ a big ass pack and/or a sled

 

leave a nice fat bottle to chill in the snow and enjoy yourself in a glacier camp as the sun goes down at the end of the day...

[wfinley]

Eliot -- I sometimes carry the 30 mm dynamic ropes because they offer you the ability to climb short pitches of semi-technical ground that I wouldn't want to be climbing with a static rope (i.e. short rock pitches in the Talkeetna mtns). Likewise I think 30m is enough rope for snow routes where running out the rope the entire 60m would put too much stress on anchors in the event of a fall.

 

As for the glacier question... it depends on the glacier. I would never go into the AK Range or the high Chugach with a 30m rope - but 30m is perfect for small glaciers like the Flute or late season on the Kenai where the crevasses are a bit smaller and you can afford to have less distance between you and your partner. Of course the gray area is on glaciers like the Eklultna.

 

In other words... you choose your rope length based on terrain, time of year and whether or not you'll want a full length rope for technical travel and / or belays.

[elliottwill]

Hi Billy,

 

As always, thanks for the info. I was mostly thinking of using it on Talkeetnas glaciers, or carrying it on Hatcher Pass scrambles like The Pinnacle. Sounds like a good way to save some pounds. then.

 

Will

[wfinley]

No problem Will. BTW - You'll want a full rope for the Pinnacle... it will make getting down much easier.

[Climzalot]

The 30m rando type ropes are super useful for their intended purpose. I use these quite a bit on glaciers where there is a possibility of a crevasse fall, but a low likelihood of that. For ski mountaineering on glaciers, I often have one in my pack, but not necessarily rigged for glacier travel.

 

As wfinley said, having dynamic properties increases the ropes usefulness in being able to belay technical bits. Although a static would be better for one application (hauling), a dynamic rope is more versatile and gives you more options in certain situations.

 

[mike1]

With regard to the safety issues, to me it comes down to one question, can I quickly and safely carry out a crevasse rescue with one rope. In my mind, the answer is yes, and so in most cases, another rope is not needed, nor an advantage.

In my experience, using this half rope system resulted in a much faster rescue (in practice) with only a couple hauls on a 3 to 1 system. The safety factor is probably equal.

It depends! How big are the slots, how numerous are the slots, at what angle will you be engaging them, do you know how to manage a crevasse rescue with little or no rescue rope left over, how long is your rope, etc. Knowing when, why, and how to do these things is key, and I don't think there is one right answer that can apply to every situation.

There are plenty of climbs you can plan for by knowing those things ahead of time. But, what I’m talking about is a trip that has everything. Actually, you don’t even know what it has because you’re making it up as you go along. 10 days in the North Cascades, anywhere.

 

Two big points for me are double rope rappels and quick and safe crevasse rescue. You could take a 9.5 for lead climbing/glacier travel and a cord for doubling up on rappel...