First it was Danish cartoons, now it's a movie!

[sobo]

Danish cartoon movies...

[JayB]

Youch! Good one, there...

Cutting to the quick. I see where you're going.

 

It has to work both ways, Hendershot, or it doesn't work at all.

 

BTW, has anyone clicked on the movie yet? I have to wait until I can view it while not connected to my company server. Somehow, I think I'd receive yet another proxy server warning...

 

Just in case you are wondering why you can't see the film on LiveLeak anymore...

 

"Following threats to our staff of a very serious nature, and some ill informed reports from certain corners of the British media that could directly lead to the harm of some of our staff, Liveleak.com has been left with no other choice but to remove Fitna from our servers.

 

This is a sad day for freedom of speech on the net but we have to place the safety and well being of our staff above all else. We would like to thank the thousands of people, from all backgrounds and religions, who gave us their support. They realised LiveLeak.com is a vehicle for many opinions and not just for the support of one.

 

Perhaps there is still hope that this situation may produce a discussion that could benefit and educate all of us as to how we can accept one anothers culture.

 

We stood for what we believe in, the ability to be heard, but in the end the price was too high."

[Dechristo]

pity

[sobo]

Great, I missed it...

I just knew I shoulda clicked on it and taken the proxy server spanking like a man.

[Dechristo]

U.N. chief slams "Kitna" film.

 

'The first minutes of the 17-minute movie show a Koran being opened and the text of a sura from Islam's holiest book, which translated from Arabic implores the faithful to "terrorise the enemies of Allah".'

 

A handful of Muslim countries had responded early Friday, with Iran saying the short movie showed some Westerners were waging a "vendetta" against Islam, and warning of unspecified repercussions.

[Bigtree]

Here you go...complete nutters...

 

bCrCsTMokTU

[Dechristo]

It seems seven minutes were edited out.

[sobo]

Thank you finding that, Bigtree.

Agreed; complete nutterz.

And a good use of Grieg.

Just precious how the 3-year old girl already knows all about the Jews... just fucking precious.

 

That was fucking insane.

[Dechristo]

I must be part Muslim cleric.

 

I hold a gun to my head to keep myself from cutting my own throat when shaving.

[Matt Kidd]

I can't believe how much hatred is in this thread. Yes there is some crazy shit on that video. But the idea that Islam is an evil religion is equally crazy. No religion is inherently good or bad. How about the notion that suffering breeds extremism? A Moroccan friend of mine was put into a coma post-9/11 by being beaten with a baseball bat by two University of British Columbia Engineering students. Because his skin was brown. Lots of people respond to extreme situations with violence. All this polarizing "us versus them" shit is really harmful.

[sobo]

I can't believe how much hatred is in this thread.

I fail to see where you read "so much hatred" in this thread. The responses to this thread are way milder than in previous threads surrounding this same topic (Islamo-facism/Muslim extremism).

 

Yes there is some crazy shit on that video. But the idea that Islam is an evil religion is equally crazy. No religion is inherently good or bad. How about the notion that suffering breeds extremism?

Howz'bout the notion that fundamentalism breeds extremism? Or howz'bout the notion that intolerance breeds extremism, eh?

 

A Moroccan friend of mine was put into a coma post-9/11 by being beaten with a baseball bat by two University of British Columbia Engineering students. Because his skin was brown.

Yes, that is sad, and shit like that happens whenever intolerance, fundamentalism, and extremism are left unchecked. Look at our own civil rights history in this country.

 

Lots of people respond to extreme situations with violence. All this polarizing "us versus them" shit is really harmful.

Agreed. But it would seem that the pacifist "let 'em run all over us and beat us into the ground" approach ain't working very well, either. You have another suggestion?

[ClimbingPanther]

No religion is inherently good or bad.

Well, from the standpoint of not knowing anything about religions of the world, you could be correct.

 

We all know religions can go through phases of evil, such as the Inquisition in Christianity, but a religion that goes through a phase and recovers is different from a religion whos very nature is evil. I'm not drawing conclusions here, but posing a question. Is this phase of Islam (widespread acceptance of violence in the name of Allah) just a phase, or is it the very nature of the religion?

[Matt Kidd]

I'd rather have the conversation over a beer. Lots to talk about and I'm supposed to be writing a paper. Nonetheless, I did chime in so I guess I better respond.

 

"Howz'bout the notion that fundamentalism breeds extremism? Or howz'bout the notion that intolerance breeds extremism, eh?"

 

My definition of extremism would tend to include religious fundamentalism. For the latter, I agree. I would suggest that there is not a great deal of tolerance or understanding being displayed on either side. I just get frustrated that people don't seem interested in the roots these statements.

Won't go into a long historical review, I'm sure that you know that the Middle East has enjoyed a lot of interest from "us" for quite a while now. Now, with all their oil wealth, there is still such an incredible rich/poor divide with many suffering people. I would suggest that such people would be prone to extremism. And those within the society who desire political control have plenty of fodder with which to agitate. That is what happens with these cartoons/movies, they become exploited. To me, it's not so much about whether we should have the "right" to offend people, it is that we should take stock of what we say and consider whether it is having a positive or negative effect upon the world. But it is a complicated issue, as censorship always is.

 

"But it would seem that the pacifist "let 'em run all over us and beat us into the ground" approach ain't working very well, either. You have another suggestion? "

 

When was this happening? I can't say that the West has EVER been pacifist regarding the Middle East. VERY interventionist.

 

I only mentioned my friend because it is relevant to the discussion. If in Canada two educated young men will beat a brown person almost to death for 9/11, then it logically follows that the suffering of some Muslim people would provoke others to violence. I see several factors responsible here. One is foreign policy - lots of adventures in the Middle East that have led to the deaths of Muslims. Another aspect to this is the sponsorship of repressive regimes. Another (a topic which I'm not willing to wade into in depth) is the support of the state of Israel. Another, and I think that this one is REALLY significant and rarely talked about - oppressive rulers that gain political advantage by blaming outside forces for their people's problems. If they blame America and Israel for their people's problems, then their people will not be focused on them.

Maybe hatred isn't the way to phrase it. Maybe it's derision, maybe it's distaste. I don't know. That video was more disturbing to me in how it was meant to make us think about Muslims. It just makes me furious that it seems to work, that such a nutcase becomes a champion for free speech.

[STP]

So I heard that the reason for things such as the subjugation of indigenous peoples, for instance, is that the Church is an institution of men. Just as men are fallible so is the institution.

 

What if Christians used the depictions in the Book of Revelation or Matthew 10:34-39 or Luke 12:49-53 to justify warfare and conflict?

[Matt Kidd]

[quote=ClimbingPanther

We all know religions can go through phases of evil, such as the Inquisition in Christianity, but a religion that goes through a phase and recovers is different from a religion whos very nature is evil. I'm not drawing conclusions here, but posing a question. Is this phase of Islam (widespread acceptance of violence in the name of Allah) just a phase, or is it the very nature of the religion?

 

Read Karen Armstrong's "Islam" - a former nun writing a very good history. You are describing a religion as being in an evil phase. Where does that leave the Muslims who do not advocate violence? What I am saying is that it is how religion is practiced that is important. Any religion can be abused.