Grip Strength

[dmuja]

 

The "pump" explained:

 

 

Wnen one says "pump" in the context of working out in a fitness gym or weight lifting etc ("I am going to pump you up"...), its not exactly the same meaning as meant in a climbing context.

 

In climbing, a "pump" is bad.

 

Ie, "Belayer Dude, Im all pumped out and I will now fall in a generally downward direction. Would you please provide a catch for me?" etc...

 

In a gym while lifting weights it is a good thing to achieve "the pump".

 

Ie "Dude, push it until it burns" (the burn = the pump). This is a good thing because you are pushing back your lactate threshold and lactic acid in your arms (a by product of intense anaerobic exercise) is what causes you to fall off of hard routes when you get "all pumped out".

 

So, when training, "the pump" is good to feel, but when climbing, "the pump" is scary shit.

 

Also, body builders like to get "pumped" bercause they look all freakish and musclely an shit. What they're talking about is mainly blood volume/flow however.

[downfall]

Grip tips by John Brookfield:

http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/ironmind/GripTips/GripTip.html

(click previous tip link at bottom to begin scrolling though the different exercises).

 

[Peter_Puget]

Downfall -

 

This is a pretty good book but I found it not very useful for climbing. Although I do use several exercises from it. I know several other cc.comers have this book and my guess is they have come to the same conclusion. In general the excercises are not climbing specific enough.

 

 

Dmuja -

With regard to the "pump" body builders are not strength trainers.

 

 

 

[Peter_Puget]

Tvark -

 

I am sure you have trained with competitive athletes and beaten them at their own game. I did do a quick google search and picked a link (semi-random)on the first page of the results. Here is what I found:

 

Muscular strength is primarily developed when 8RM or less is used in a set. How much load you use depends upon what it is you wish to develop:

 

1RM to 3RM - neuromuscular strength

4RM to 6RM - maximum strength by stimulating muscle hypertrophy

6RM to 12RM - muscle size (hypertrophy) with moderate gains in strength (Fleck & Kraemer, 1996)

12RM to 20RM - muscle size and endurance

 

I am sure that many supporting and conflicting studies could be found.

 

In any event my comments were directed towards the lactic acid burn and barbell finger curls comment. I believe that if you are getting a climbing type burn while performing this excercise you are not doing it in a manner that will maximise strength gain.

[tvashtarkatena]

Yeah, but I'm still prettier than you.

 

Here's a link that's perhaps a bit more scientific than your random choice. It's a summary of what was learned from 35 studies on weight/strength training:

 

Mayo Cliinic Sports Medicine

 

This also mimicks what two trainers (friends) relayed to me independently.

 

I based the weight training program I started three months ago on these and concurring recommendations. Since then I've doubled strength in all exercises while steadily losing body weight. That's just been my experience, of course. What's been yours?

 

You claim that high reps produce the greatest increase in muscle size and low reps do not. If that were true, marathoners would have gigantic legs and body builders, who train with high weight/low reps, would look like sticks. One need not run to the web to figure that one out.

Edited November 27, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[dmuja]

I believe that if you are getting a climbing type burn while performing this exercise you are not doing it in a manner that will maximize strength gain.

 

RE: lactic acid burn and barbell curls

 

If you are doing it to failure (RM = Rep Max, ie, you can't do any more), and doing multiple sets with short rests, and you're not cheating on the intensity, (ie, speed and correct form), you not only will be training for strength, endurance, AND power, simultaneously, but you will feel the pump as well. And this necessarily will push up your lactic acid threshold or at the very least build you a tolerance for pain in addition to making you stronger. You can argue about it if you want but after a set or 3 -even at high weight/low RepMax if thats your cup of tea- it will be the "pump" that brings you to failure or RM.

 

After lifting/ training for more than 30 years I can tell you that some of this stuff is silly nonsensical bs in the real world that doesnt apply to actual performance.

 

You want to get stronger? have more power? more endurance? Then lift heavy, lift fast/intense, and lift as many reps as it takes to get you to failure (and yes it will produce the "burn" or "pump") its as simple as that. Just choose a weight that both tests you and yet does not get you injured - thats the big real world task and balancing act that any kind of "strength trainer" needs to accomplish. Few do though, very few.

 

BTW, I completely disagree that body builders arnt strength trainers! They use strength to help get them to their goals as do climbers as do football players as do any number of other athletes.

Edited November 27, 2007 by dmuja

[tvashtarkatena]

I am getting huge just reading this.

[dmuja]

 

Yeah but ur nutz are shrinking

[tvashtarkatena]

So'z my wallet. I just ordered an Ivanko Super Gripper from these guys for $31.50 incl. shipping:

 

Weightlifter's Wharehouse

 

Best price I could find.

[akicebum]

Here you go. Farmers walk yeah it is sick. Ditch digging works well, but if you want to get all affluent yuppie about it this is it:

http://www6.mailordercentral.com/ironmind/departments.asp?dept=7

 

[Peter_Puget]

Yeah, but I'm still prettier than you.

 

Here's a link that's perhaps a bit more scientific than your random choice. It's a summary of what was learned from 35 studies on weight/strength training:

 

Mayo Cliinic Sports Medicine

 

This also mimicks what two trainers (friends) relayed to me independently.

 

I based the weight training program I started three months ago on these and concurring recommendations. Since then I've doubled strength in all exercises while steadily losing body weight. That's just been my experience, of course. What's been yours?

 

You claim that high reps produce the greatest increase in muscle size and low reps do not. If that were true, marathoners would have gigantic legs and body builders, who train with high weight/low reps, would look like sticks. One need not run to the web to figure that one out.

 

I bow to your vast experience! I do note that three months is a short time. How has this impacted your actual climbing? How many grades have you improved?

[Peter_Puget]

I believe that if you are getting a climbing type burn while performing this exercise you are not doing it in a manner that will maximize strength gain.

 

RE: lactic acid burn and barbell curls

 

If you are doing it to failure (RM = Rep Max, ie, you can't do any more), and doing multiple sets with short rests, and you're not cheating on the intensity, (ie, speed and correct form), you not only will be training for strength, endurance, AND power, simultaneously, but you will feel the pump as well. And this necessarily will push up your lactic acid threshold or at the very least build you a tolerance for pain in addition to making you stronger. You can argue about it if you want but after a set or 3 -even at high weight/low RepMax if thats your cup of tea- it will be the "pump" that brings you to failure or RM.

 

After lifting/ training for more than 30 years I can tell you that some of this stuff is silly nonsensical bs in the real world that doesnt apply to actual performance.

 

You want to get stronger? have more power? more endurance? Then lift heavy, lift fast/intense, and lift as many reps as it takes to get you to failure (and yes it will produce the "burn" or "pump") its as simple as that. Just choose a weight that both tests you and yet does not get you injured - thats the big real world task and balancing act that any kind of "strength trainer" needs to accomplish. Few do though, very few.

 

BTW, I completely disagree that body builders arnt strength trainers! They use strength to help get them to their goals as do climbers as do football players as do any number of other athletes.

 

I bow to your vast experience but do suggest that you compare the workout strategies of cometitive power lifters with competitive body builders.

[tvashtarkatena]

Yeah, but I'm still prettier than you.

 

Here's a link that's perhaps a bit more scientific than your random choice. It's a summary of what was learned from 35 studies on weight/strength training:

 

Mayo Cliinic Sports Medicine

 

 

This also mimicks what two trainers (friends) relayed to me independently.

 

I based the weight training program I started three months ago on these and concurring recommendations. Since then I've doubled strength in all exercises while steadily losing body weight. That's just been my experience, of course. What's been yours?

 

You claim that high reps produce the greatest increase in muscle size and low reps do not. If that were true, marathoners would have gigantic legs and body builders, who train with high weight/low reps, would look like sticks. One need not run to the web to figure that one out.

 

I bow to your vast experience! I do note that three months is a short time. How has this impacted your actual climbing? How many grades have you improved?

 

YOu must have really powerful eye muscles by now.

 

Still, I'll answer seriously, for the benefit of other participants who are here for more than just being an asshat sprayer. Whether 3 months or 30 years, personal experience is personal experience; single but real data points as compared to the none you've offered.

 

Rock climbing is a way better experience after some weight training. Huge difference. My arms don't even come close to blowing out on pumpy Vantage routes I used to have to rest on. And a stronger core means being more relaxed regardless of which climbing technique I'm employing at any given time. More rest, less sketch, no injuries, more fun on lead.

 

Forearm endurance is even more important for steeper ice. I'll be testing that soon as well.

[dmuja]

 

I bow to your vast experience but do suggest that you compare the workout strategies of cometitive power lifters with competitive body builders.

 

Dewdget, You're too legit to quit.

 

I apologize if I came off as arrogant.

 

Tis been my "vast experience" that most people (climbers included) know shockingly little about strength training - even what you or I would consider the most basic approach/strategy/technique to getting stronger.

 

In fact, id say most "certified trainers" are probably worthless (unless they are 1.reputable 2.pertinent degree holding 3.independent). At the fitness gym I watch people "lifting" month after month and beyond with utterly no strength or muscle gain. I also watch them get hurt and drop out like flies. And then there are the numerous folks who just stay away from weights altogether because they scare them or who are simply clueless about how to even start. Even on this board some time ago there was a comment to the effect of "what does lifting weights have to do with climbing anyhow?" So maybe I have a little attitude about the topic - sorry.

 

Anyway, the "pump explanation" may have came off as insulting to you but it was probably meant for novice strength trainers. Ive had climbers at the climbing gym tell me they "didn't want to get pumped" when what they were doing was TRAINING to climb harder! You also hear people (and "experts"?) say they are afraid of "getting too bulky" so they forgo any kind of strength training what so ever. Its all so ridiculous.

 

What youre talking about as a difference in training approaches between body builders and "weight lifters" is some thing that really only comes into play far down the line and at a rather elite level. It also involves rest and nutrition strategies as well as the unfortunate aspect of steroids - you don't get far in competitive body building without them btw (so called "natural" compitions aside). Most people will stop training long before they reach this level either due to their being satisfied with their goals or more and most commonly because they have injured themselves.

 

Anyway, I stand by what I said earlier (if not the manner..). And, the biggest concerns most climbers should have in starting a strength building program should be avoiding injury and getting enough muscle rest. If you can accomplish that much you will see results in your performance even if it just means getting "the pump" in order to avoid "the pump" while on route.

 

D

[JayB]

Since you sound like you know what you are talking about, what kind of set structure do you normally use for maximum strength gains?

 

 

[Peter_Puget]

Ya you've got me I have never worked out and never climbed much more than Tiger Mountain. Your strength increased 100% in three months that's amazing!

 

I would of course be interested in just where I claimed: "that high reps produce the greatest increase in muscle size and low reps do not." While your looking for it think about who is the asshat.

 

Anyway there is nothing bad in working out with weights I am just saying that if you are looking to improve climbing grip strength given the advice here the smart money is on Sexy's suggestion.

 

Also as I wrote in my first post: Depending on how hard you are climbing and your personal strengths and weaknesses specific grip training may not be the most advantageous place to concentrate your efforts.

 

 

 

 

[dmuja]

Since you sound like you know what you are talking about, what kind of set structure do you normally use for maximum strength gains?

 

 

Anyway, to finish it, for what its worth..

 

JayB Im not so concerned about "maximum" strength gains. The vast majority of people would do well just getting to plain old "strength gains". Of coarse, I have my preferences.

 

As for grip specifics, I do the forearm barbell curl (not just finger curl) as I mentioned @ around 120 lbs (give 'r take) X 4 to 5 sets, X 2-3 days a week. Between those curl sets I do sets of x50 hand grippers. Often, Ill throw my towel around the weight station high bar, grab the towel and do 'bent arm hangs' and pull ups with the towel. And when I do push ups Ill do fingertips for half of the 4 sets X 50 reps. Again, Im trying to not only get stronger here, but feel or rather "wallow in" the lactic burn so that I don't feel it when I climb.

 

Anyway if you really want an answer regarding overall strength training we can do a PM exchange, let me know.

 

D

[tvashtarkatena]

Ya you've got me I have never worked out and never climbed much more than Tiger Mountain. Your strength increased 100% in three months that's amazing!

 

 

 

I was wondering when you were going to play the "I'm a hard man, check it" card. Tragic.

 

And this generic jewel of wisdom:

 

Depending on how hard you are climbing and your personal strengths and weaknesses specific grip training may not be the most advantageous place to concentrate your efforts.

 

Ya think?

 

Did you ever think that people seeking information on how to improve grip strength had already discovered that that is their weak point? Which brings me to my point; despite your experience, you've offered little useful information, from personal experience or otherwise, on the actual topic.

 

Cheers.

 

Edited November 29, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[Peter_Puget]

 

You’re precious.

 

Those looking to build grip strength I say go follow all of T's very specific advice,but please whatever you are do don't use a a hangboard or incorporate bouldering pyramids into your workouts!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2007 by Peter_Puget

[JayB]

Since you sound like you know what you are talking about, what kind of set structure do you normally use for maximum strength gains?

 

 

Anyway, to finish it, for what its worth..

 

JayB Im not so concerned about "maximum" strength gains. The vast majority of people would do well just getting to plain old "strength gains". Of coarse, I have my preferences.

 

As for grip specifics, I do the forearm barbell curl (not just finger curl) as I mentioned @ around 120 lbs (give 'r take) X 4 to 5 sets, X 2-3 days a week. Between those curl sets I do sets of x50 hand grippers. Often, Ill throw my towel around the weight station high bar, grab the towel and do 'bent arm hangs' and pull ups with the towel. And when I do push ups Ill do fingertips for half of the 4 sets X 50 reps. Again, Im trying to not only get stronger here, but feel or rather "wallow in" the lactic burn so that I don't feel it when I climb.

 

Anyway if you really want an answer regarding overall strength training we can do a PM exchange, let me know.

 

D

 

I was just kind of curious because strength is the primary benefit that I'm looking for when I actually lift with a specific purpose in the mind. That's normally for about 3-4 months in the winter, after which time I invariably wind up just doing maintenance type workouts and enjoying my hobbies.

 

Anyhow - when I'm actually trying to accomplish something, I typically do a warmup set at about 12-15 reps@ ~50% of max, 3-4 sets of 4 to 6 reps @ ~65-70% of max, and 1-2 reps at around ~80-90% of max.

 

That was basically the drill for strength training in HS, and I haven't changed much since then. Just kind of curious to see how far off the mark this routine is.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

 

You’re precious.

 

Those looking to build grip strength I say go follow all of T's very specific advice,but please whatever you are do don't use a a hangboard or incorporate bouldering pyramids into your workouts!

 

 

 

 

 

I prescribed nothing. I just gave a link and some personal experience (which, by definition, is specific) to be taken or left as the reader sees fit. dmuja is spot on; any exercise the gets your muscles to the 'burn' or 'pump' stage will increase strength (paraphrased). This could mean lifting Buicks, squeezing Hostess Berry Pies, or vigorous masturbation. The apparatus employed is not the issue. As for the use of fingerboards, I posted:

 

"Above is a formula for increasing strength/weight as quickly as possible. Increasing muscle endurance and training for sport specific motions using multiple muscle groups (boards, pullups, etc) is another matter but also well advised."

 

I did post that, from what I've read (and followed) multiple sets, rather than one set until muscle failure, provides little additional benefit if the goal is strictly to increase strength to weight. I've tried both and found that strength increased just as rapidly over time with only one set as with multiples. As always, just my experience, buyer beware. A key point here is that a little time spent weight training goes a long way. My weight workouts take all of an hour and a half a week.

 

You're in pure spray mode, now PP. Pretty sad for a mod on a non-spray forum.

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[K^2]

Anyhow - when I'm actually trying to accomplish something, I typically do a warmup set at about 12-15 reps@ ~50% of max, 3-4 sets of 4 to 6 reps @ ~65-70% of max, and 1-2 reps at around ~80-90% of max.

 

 

The way I learned it (and it's worked for me is):

 

9 sets at 4-6 reps for "bulk".

9 sets at 8-10 reps for "strength".

 

In both cases you must be at failure on the last rep. So to get through 9 sets you may be dropping the weight 5-15 lbs at some point.

 

You rest 3 days between muscle groups and don't do one mucscle more than twice in a week.

 

So, for example, for biceps, I might do 3 sets of 6-8 reps at 45 lb per arm, then drop to 40 lbs for 3 sets, then 37.5 lbs for the last 3. I would do this no more then twice a week. YMMV.

 

Another thing I've tried are supersets where you basically bundle three sets together, rep to failure on the first, drop the weight, rep to failure, drop the weight and rep to failure with no rest - big burn. Then rest 2-3 minutes before you do the next superset.

[Peter_Puget]

What I said was that any workout mimiking a "climbing pump" is not the best for developing strength. Unless you are bouldering, a climbing pump is predominately an endurance phenomenon. Doing finger rolls with failure at 50 ( picked because Dmuja uses 50 for push-ups) reps is not as effective for building strength as fewer reps w/ more weight. Same goes with 25. BTW finger rolls with a lot of weight (240+) are hard to do with proper form.

 

Another thing I've tried are supersets where you basically bundle three sets together, rep to failure on the first, drop the weight, rep to failure, drop the weight and rep to failure with no rest - big burn. Then rest 2-3 minutes before you do the next superset.

 

I think that going to failure is the most important factor.

 

In the 5 to 15 rep range my own take is fewer reps and fewer sets is fine for building strength and makes recovery easier.

 

On lat pull down I use to like to do the following:

 

1 set of six

Rest 3min

1 RM

Rest 3 min

1 set to (six max) at a higher weight than first set

Rest

1 RM

rest 3 min

1 set to (six max) at a higher weight than third set

Rest 3 min

1 RM

 

It takes awhile to get the weights right but in general the 1 RM should be of increasing weight.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Thank you.

[K^2]

What I said was that any workout mimiking a "climbing pump" is not the best for developing strength. Unless you are bouldering, a climbing pump is predominately an endurance phenomenon. Doing finger rolls with failure at 50 ( picked because Dmuja uses 50 for push-ups) reps is not as effective for building strength as fewer reps w/ more weight. Same goes with 25. BTW finger rolls with a lot of weight (240+) are hard to do with proper form.

 

Another thing I've tried are supersets where you basically bundle three sets together, rep to failure on the first, drop the weight, rep to failure, drop the weight and rep to failure with no rest - big burn. Then rest 2-3 minutes before you do the next superset.

 

I think that going to failure is the most important factor.

 

In the 5 to 15 rep range my own take is fewer reps and fewer sets is fine for building strength and makes recovery easier.

 

On lat pull down I use to like to do the following:

 

1 set of six

Rest 3min

1 RM

Rest 3 min

1 set to (six max) at a higher weight than first set

Rest

1 RM

rest 3 min

1 set to (six max) at a higher weight than third set

Rest 3 min

1 RM

 

It takes awhile to get the weights right but in general the 1 RM should be of increasing weight.

 

 

Another practice that is useful for strength building is "pyramid"-ing your sets. Warm up with a weight you can do 10-12 reps, then increase the weight by 5-10 lbs (depends on muscle), go to failure, keep going up until you are at a weight where you can only do 4-6 reps, then start dropping the weight.

 

biceps again

10 reps @ 35 lb

8 reps @ 40 lb

6 reps @ 45 lb

4 reps @ 50 lb

6 reps @ 45 lb

7-8 reps @ 40 lb

9-10 reps @ 35 lb