Extend cordelette

[Mark O'Neal]

Say I'm TR'ing and I've tied a cordelette around a tree, but I need to extend it further to get beyond the edge of the cliff. What would be the appropriate way to attach two sections of tied webbing to the bight on the cordelette? Is it OK to girth hitch both sections of webbing to the bight and then put two lockers on the far end? Or should I put two lockers on the bight, attach both sections of webbing to the lockers, and then use two more lockers on the far end?

Edited November 2, 2007 by Mark O'Neal

[dan_forester]

Well, I've certainly girth hitched runners, webbing & cord together to extend an anchor to the right spot, but if you've got the extra biners, connecting the cordelette & the webbing w/ 2 lockers (or a locker & an oval, opposed & reversed) would probably be the best set-up.

[letsroll]

Really dan. I would just girth hitch the runners and use lockers at rope end, less points for things to go wrong. The best would to have a second rope tied off to the tree and extended over lip, if you are a gear whore like me you have extra ropes sittin around

 

If this happens often or what ever and don't have the extra rope laying around, you could buy an extra long webing for this purpose (assuming this is at a crag and extra weight and fumbling is non-issue). I would use 1 inch tubular webbing for this. Other than having the extra rope this is the best.

[Crillz]

Both situations would be fine for toproping in most situations. The thickness of your cordelette and slings might make one have a different opinion.

[Mark O'Neal]

I have 8mm cordelette and 1" tubular webbing. The reason I ask is that I was reading the other day where a girth hitch can substantially reduce the breaking strength of webbing. So I got to thinking about which way would be better. I tend to think it would be better to go with the girth hitch rather than introduce more components into the system when using two pieces of webbing. If I was only using one piece of webbing I think I might want to reconsider using a locker instead of the hitch. But that's why I asked the question. Sounds like so far maybe on a TR ultimately its just personal preference.

[hafilax]

I'd feel better with two biners between the slings and the cord than with girth hitches (as long as the biners aren't over an edge or something like that). Not that you can generate that much force on TR but girth hitched slings can cut pretty well and fail at relatively low forces. Sling to sling is worse than sling to cord expecially with super thin dyneema.

[blueserac]

Halifax presents solid points for safety.

 

When you on the rope you are on the rope. Simple, right? Anchors are anchors, right? Why would you have a different set of rules for lead climbing and that for top roping? You are on rope for both. In top rope scenarios you are system and equipment dependant, usually much more so than in lead/follower ssituations.

 

1- Cheap, why be cheap with equipment? What are the costs of your health and life?

 

2- Lazy! Yes, you are lazy to not function at the highest standard of care. The information is available to learn, adopt and practice safe climbing.

 

3-Self-Centered! Just change you systems for the better. Don't worry what others say or think about doing it one, or in this case many steps better than what your contemporaries do. You are placing your partner at risk and in danger. If something happens from your negligent systems your poor choice places the quality and experience for fun of those around you at risk; and if the assistance of those to respond to correct the situation (help your lazy ass) are themselves potentially placed at risk. If the access and land use is in review a incident like this could be enough to shut it down for others. Beginners might be looking at what and how you do it and may think that is how you do it.

 

4- Synaptic pathways...ummmm, this is learned behaviour to you, or it is how you do things. If you practice crap then that is what you will do. So when you are tired and at that one time that it really isn't ok to act negligently you will do what you have practiced. So if you practice crap now then you will do it when it matters, and that is called karma.

 

Anchors need to be redundant, multi directional and equalized. Reduce the links in the safety chain. Extended improve smooth running and efficient belaying, and to prevent cross loading or levering on biners. Prevent nylon on nylon of possible. If it needs to nylon on nylon, which it doesn't, not all knots are equal, use close ended loops and not self-constricting hitches; and cord/rope to tape can greatly deteriorate the integrity of the tape.

 

Buy some long, long sections of 1 inch tubular or 8mm static line so that you can make your anchor from trees in one long equalized strand.

 

Take a course.

 

Read books, information. Go to the library, bookstore, used books shop, and learn as much as you can. What ever ever happened to John Longs' series of books...Climbing Anchors, and the second volume, More Climbing Anchors?

 

 

[Mark O'Neal]

What ever ever happened to John Longs' series of books...Climbing Anchors, and the second volume, More Climbing Anchors?

 

 

 

John Long's "Climbing Anchors 2nd ed." doesn't really directly address this issue. Although I can't recall one picture in the book where he doesn't use biners to extend anchors. He does however talk about building super bomber TR anchors versus "good enough" belay anchors.

 

BTW, relax dude....

[bstach]

I agree w the sentiment to make your top-rope anchors bomber. In an alpine rappel situation, no biners would be fine. But in a top rope situation, there is a slight risk that continuous hang-dogging will create enough nylon on nylon friction to weaken the slings. And because you are top-roping, you really have no excuse not to bring a few extra biners to make this bomber.

[hafilax]

I just did a quick search out of curiosity and the first hit was a report from Mammut about their 8mm dyneema slings. In the first paragraph they state that it is well known that girth hitched dyneema slings lose about %50 of their strength regardless of size.

 

The report is in response to a girth hitched sling breaking in a toprope anchor while the climber was cleaning a route so jugging up and down. That is reason enough for me not to want to toprope on a girth hitched sling anchor.

[catbirdseat]

Everyone sooner or later will end up with a retired rope that was chopped somewhere along its legth. You cut off the damaged part and now you have an otherwise serviceable rope except that it is short.

 

Save it. Bring it with you to the crags. What better way to extend a top rope anchor a long distance than a nice fat climbing rope? Tie a No Knot Hitch around a BFTree and extend the rope to the lip. Tie a nice figure nine loop and you're good to go.

[Mark O'Neal]

I just did a quick search out of curiosity and the first hit was a report from Mammut about their 8mm dyneema slings. In the first paragraph they state that it is well known that girth hitched dyneema slings lose about %50 of their strength regardless of size.

 

The report is in response to a girth hitched sling breaking in a toprope anchor while the climber was cleaning a route so jugging up and down. That is reason enough for me not to want to toprope on a girth hitched sling anchor.

 

Thanks Hafilax, that's exactly what I was looking for. You must be a better Googler than I am, because I searched too. I'm still thinking that if you are using two independent slings/webbing you're probably OK with the girth hitch in certain circumstances. But the point is well taken that there shouldn't be any reason to go this route on TR.

 

On a slightly separate issue, the Mammut article shows why you should backup your sling when using it to extend your rappel friction device. I was taught to tie a figure 8 in the middle of the sling, girth hitch one end to your belay loop and then backup the other end with a biner to your belay loop.

[bar-tacked]

Some more info on the topic of connecting slings:

 

http://www.bdel.com/scene/beta/qc_kp_archive.php#110906

 

[Gary_Yngve]

Another danger of girth-hitching slings together is they form a focal point for wear-and-tear from rubbing. One time at Mt. Erie I saw a girth hitch of 1-inch webbing that someone else set up be burned halfway through from half a day of top roping.