training when exhausted?

[i_like_sun]

Alright Lizard Brain, you've got me started, so its YOUR fault!

 

When we are strung out and exhausted from life's endeavors, like work, school, relationships etc... our physiological capacity for adaptation is lower than when we are well rested. Adrenal hormones get depleted more easily if we are tired, and this can lead to adrenal fatigue. Also, when we are in states of emotional and/or physical stress, testosterone (or estrogen) levels are also lower. Because the sex steroids are so crucial for lean mass maintenance, if we exercise when our bodies can't raise these hormones to the occasion we simply can't rebuild the lean mass that we just broke down, and thus we damage metabolism. This is why it is so important not to over-exercise when we are already WIPED - light stimulation is the way to go when we are drained.

 

The other piece to this, is that training when super exhausted strains the brain centers associated with controlling all these hormones and their secretion. The hypothalamus, or master gland, can actually become "fatigued". This is where chronic overtraining (or chronic stress for that matter) becomes so damaging. Over time the release of CRH can become suppressed. This stands for corticotropin-releasing hormone, and is responsible for initiating the release of ACTH from the anterior pituitary gland. To simplify, this axis is the "backbone" of our general stress response, and if we exercise or over-stress to the point where these chemicals aren't being released in adequate quantities we begin to cause real damage to our bodies. What is interesting is that the stimulation or suppression of these feedback mechanisms are all a matter of "degree". Meaning that without exercise and stress our brains simply see no reason to raise hormone levels, and over time the tissues associated with their secretion can actually atrophy just like muscles we don't use. Yet on the other end, if we have too much stress over too much time, the same thing happens. The other important thing to know, is that we can build up this ability to withstand stress with exercise. If we don't over-do it, these glands hypertrophy to some degree and become better at what they do. So it really is ALL ABOUT BALANCE.

 

Nutrition plays a big roll too. Simply being hungry is a form of stress, so exercising too much on an empty stomach can cause damage. What is fantastically interesting to me about nutrition, is that it is SOOOOOOOO much more than just calories and vitamins. Whenever we eat ANYTHING, it is literally a chemical message to the brain that says "we are not starving, therefore it is OK to increase metabolic rate and raise anabolic hormones" (ie. testosterone, estrogen, insulin, GH, IGF-1). What is ALSO interesting, is that when we are [starving] we operate out of different centers of the brain - frontal cortex recruitment lowers, and we fall to using brain centers associated with emotion and aggression (basically we stop thinking logically). This is where the whole idea of eating six meals per day comes in. Whenever we fall into low blood sugar levels we literally cause mild brain damage. All of this is also why severe malnutrition is such a sad thing. Just think about all the people in Africa literally consuming themselves...

 

This turned into another rant - which I tend to do, but basically I'm saying that exercising when our bodies are already exhausted can cause some real damage to our ability to withstand stress in general. This is because stress is stress. The hypothalamus doesn't know the difference between a ten mile run and a super shitty day at the office. OVERALL MESSAGE: Don't over-do.

 

Hopefully this helps too.

[lizard_brain]

What you say about nutrition and hunger interests me, because I have a habit of not eating during long trips until the day is over. I may go mainly on Gatorade, and keep Gu or some sort of energy bars on hand for 'anti-bonk', but I just CANNOT bring myself to eat a meal during a hard day of climbing or hiking. I have to wait until it's over, and cool off. I don't feel hunger. I keep well hydrated, almost always with sports drinks, and if the going is hard, I keep the Gu going now and then. But that's about it. During long runs I drink about 4-5 ounces of sports drinks about every 5 miles. While climbing, I may drink 3-4 quarts of Gatorade, and eat nothing in 12-16 hours.

[i_like_sun]

Yeah, I'd definately say eat more man. If you do constant nibbles on things while you climb, by the end of the day you'd have consumed probably more calories than if you stopped for a "proper meal". I've been nibbling on dark chocolate bars, almonds, raisins, TORTILLAS (!!!!), even yohgurt in those small containers. If you eat more WHILE you exercise, especially on those long climbing days, you'll save a substantial amount of muscle mass from being catabolized - and you'll be able to go longer and harder (higher testosterone).

 

I agree with you fully, eating a lot while you climb is REALLY, REALLY HARD. Especially when working super hard. I've found that the ability to stomach more food is also part of the training effect. Basically you have to get your body used to eating more all the time, you can't do it over night.

 

Like we've established already, you are a very different athlete than I am, but the physiology is a constant no matter what. Now that its been nearly a year since my complete metabolic breakdown, and I've had a chance to work super hard on improving my eating habbits, when I look in the mirror I realize that I have SOOOOO much more muscle mass than I ever used to have; plus the scale says I'm 25 pounds heavier, and my body fat is still below ten percent. Basically, right now I'm more ripped than I have ever been, and its not because I've been training harder. Quite the contrary, I've been training [smarter], but mostly I've been timing my nutrition around exercise and eating A LOT. I'm just curious to see what kind of shape I can get to in the future!

 

Oh, you said that sometimes you won't eat anything in a period of 12-16 hours? Bro, cut that out. You'll be such a better and tougher athlete if you give your body what it needs. Eat small and very often.

[lizard_brain]

Yeah, that's normally while I'm working - climbing, etc. I can't stomach food while I'm active. I've been looking for foods that I can put down in small amounts. I force down half a Cliff Bar here and there... Put the other half in my pocket or pack. Gu is pretty tolerable - but I mainly use that for anti-bonk. I was 'overweight' for some time - finally got to a 'normal' bmi just this last month or so. Just from diet, not from exercise. I lost 10+ pounds AFTER I did a marathon last May. Just starting to get ready for another one in November. The change was mainly cutting out almost all processed foods and going all raw, except for the pasta. This is all beside my original point - I gotta find a way to get myself to eat while I'm out next season. Climbing is pretty much over for me for the year and I am concentrating on the marathon coming in November. Then rest & recover for 2-3 weeks, snowshoe for a couple of months, then maybe do another marathon in May before the climbing season...

[i_like_sun]

You sound a lot like I did last year. When I was training nothing but endurance stuff, I found that my metabolism slowed so much that I couldn't stomach hardly ANY food while I exercised (I would actually throw up if I ate too much). Humm....... the only way to get yourself to eat more is to practice. When you begin to eat more consistantly your thyroid up reglulates your metabolic rate and this enables your digestive track to move more quikely - the food you eat is processed FASTER. Perhaps more liquid calories to start? You could make up one of those carb-protein drinks and sip that during a run? Also, I like how you said you have removed processed stuff and eat mainly raw foods. It doesn't really make any sense to me why people eat things that have ZERO metabolic use! So right on!

 

Basically, what I've found, and from the research I've come across, is that if we replenish calories while we exercise (especially carbs) we will store more glycogen and increase protein synthesis (muscle building). In fact, losing weight isn't necessarily a good thing - we want to preserve muscle mass and burn FAT. If you eat more of your daily calories around your workouts, you'll build more muscle and burn more fat than if you starve yourself and eat later. Think about it, if we eat more while our metabolisms are revving super high from exercise, our bodies are going to use the calories to fuel all those anabolic pathways (exercise stimulates anabolic metabolism). Whereas if we don't eat around exercise and starve 1) muscle building doesn't happen, and 2) If we eat hours after exercise when metabolism has slowed, more of the calories we eat are stored as fat in preparation for the next starvation.

 

 

[jon]

Research has found that excessive typing is a result of low levels of STFU-1 which has been found to be a trans-acting agonist to EAD-2.

[i_like_sun]

Actually, studies show that ADD types 1 and 2 are shown to increase the rate of transcriptive typing synthesis.

 

JACKASS.

[matt_warfield]

ILS. Do you have a background in nutrition or did you just get interested when you had issues?

 

And watch out for jon. Rumor has it that he is some kind of big shot on this site.

[marylou]

Having been a strong athlete in my younger years and then working stoopid long hours later on, I do believe there is not magic formula for what Mike's asking for. Being able to maintain baseline core strength and cardio to make a return to normalcy easier is a lot more reasonable goal.

[lizard_brain]

What he said.

[i_like_sun]

ILS. Do you have a background in nutrition or did you just get interested when you had issues?

 

And watch out for jon. Rumor has it that he is some kind of big shot on this site.

 

I'm about to graduate with my bachelor's in exercise physiology and minor in chemistry. All the crap I unloaded on here is mostly a result of me being a massive science obsessor, and simultaneously having a major real life struggle with all the issues discussed. I will say that getting sick, and deciding to learn about the physiology of what was [wrong] with me was the best educational experience I've ever had. It just so happened that my studies at university coincided perfectly.

 

As for anyone being a " big shot", man, I could not care less. I know there are a lot of insanely smart and accomplished people on here, far smarter and more accomplished than I. Hopefully some of them will post on this subject too so we can all learn and improve.

[korup]

The only info I can give is to watch your resting heart rate; for me it is the most obvious sign that I *need* to back off. I'll still feel strong enough for hard workouts, but I am guaranteed to get "flat" if I do push it. This hole then takes 2+ weeks to recover from! The Zone diet helps a lot for me as well. Lastly, I try and make a huge dinner at 8 or 9 pm, eat the leftovers for lunch, and then a mini-dinner at 4:30pm; this allows me to run right after work, and have enough time to make another huge dinner before bed.

[lizard_brain]

The only info I can give is to watch your resting heart rate; for me it is the most obvious sign that I *need* to back off. I'll still feel strong enough for hard workouts, but I am guaranteed to get "flat" if I do push it. This hole then takes 2+ weeks to recover from! The Zone diet helps a lot for me as well. Lastly, I try and make a huge dinner at 8 or 9 pm, eat the leftovers for lunch, and then a mini-dinner at 4:30pm; this allows me to run right after work, and have enough time to make another huge dinner before bed.

 

What do you mean? Do you mean you experience elevated resting heart rate during the times that you are pushing it?

 

Edited September 7, 2007 by lizard_brain

[korup]

If I feel tired and unmotivated to run, I go IF my resting heart rate is normal. If it is elevated, *for me* tha means I really, really need to back off, or I will get very, very "flat," run down, and my performance nose-dives for at least 2 weeks, even with extensive rest. That's the only way I can tell if traning while exhausted is a decent idea, or really, really stoopid. It took several years to nail that down though, and I am sure not everyone is the same way.

[i_like_sun]

Yeah, heart rate is a good tool to look at for measuring how stressed your body is. If you are overtraining, there will be higher levels of catecholamines floating around, and this elevates heart rate.

 

If you are well rested, the oposite is true. Obviously.

[lizard_brain]

I see. I'm used to thinking of 'resting heart rate' as my heart rate when I first wake up in the morning. That's why I asked. I see what you mean now...

[i_like_sun]

Yeah, I haven't been able to get myself to check it regularly, but it is a good way of monitoring where your body is really at. Another tool I've been using to avoid overtraining is keeping a small journal about how well I'm sleeping. I find that if I'm over stressing myself in any form I tend to have lighter and interupted sleep. I also wake up way earlier than my normal. On these days I usually (hopefully) make myself take it easy for a day or two. Meaning, stay out of the gym and don't do any hard runs. Maybe a walk and stretching.

 

Overall I find that if I am still sleeping really well (as exercise should make you do) and maintaining a monstrous appetite, things are A - OK.

[lizard_brain]

Hmmm... Stopped climbing just over 2 weeks ago, ramped up the running because of it, and resting heart rate has gone up by 10 beats per minute the last couple of days, 24 hours, waking rate included. Had a mini-crash Sunday and didn't finish my long run. Was doing great time, too. Yesterday was a scheduled day off. Today my nose is running and heart rate is lower but still increased. I say it's time for an extra day or two off...

[lizard_brain]

P.S. That's a pretty good example of the way I play it...

[i_like_sun]

Yeah, what you just described is a perfect example of how I do things too. When you are pushing fitness like this, the line between being a great athlete and having massive fatigue becomes thiner and thiner.

[lizard_brain]

Yeah, I am SO tempted to go out after work and go do speed runs... But I know if I do it will cost me more than I gain. One more day, two at the most, and I will be much better off. Chances are, if I push it, I'll be exhausted in a couple of days, and in a couple of weeks will wind up flat on my back sick for 5-6 days. If I push it too long on the endurance training, my immune system takes a nose-dive.

[i_like_sun]

Man, your words are more wise than you probably realize. LISTEN TO THEM! So many times in my past have I heard myself saying almost word for word what you just wrote, and NOT listened. I obviously payed dearly for it.

 

Good job!