Popes Realization

[RuMR]

So, Don Ryan (Raindawg), you have a problem with somebody working hard and attain an objective? Or do you think he is so "good" it came easily?

 

I have a problem with the means of obtaining the objective. Do you really think that sieging a sport-climb to obtain some high-number is equivalent to having the skill to climb the route on-sight?

By the way, Matthew Perkins, you were the one who told me I could never climb a 5.13....you sized me up and decided I was incapable. I still say it's possible for most who want to work up to it or employ siege tactics...you seem to be the one putting limits on people, including people you don't know very well.

no...and i don't recall anyone ever making that claim...do you?

[RuMR]

hey kevbeenboned...ask dwayner about the ongoing "challenge/bet"...

 

There is nothing "on-going" and "the bet" was childish. Here's the story which directly relates:

 

A few years ago, there was a discussion about hang-dogging in which I described it as "siege climbing". The old school philosophy is that you climb from the bottom up, and if you fell, you were lowered to the ground and started over, or you trained on lower grades and worked your abilities higher until you were good enough to address the climb on its own terms.

Hang-dogging...hanging off your gear to rest, falling repeatedly while rehearsing the moves, was considered weak free-climbing, essentially aid, and bogus. It demonstrated that you weren't ready. So let's say the climb is 5.13, and someone thrashes their way up this thing after weeks of hang-dogging and rehearsal and than pulls the rope and "red-points" it. Is this person really a 5.13 climber versus someone who has worked their abilities to the point where they can actually lead it on-site?

 

An analogous tradition can be seen in the expedition vs. alpine tradition in mountaineering where alpine-style climbing is considered a stylistically superior means of obtaining a summit. Reinhold Messner epitomized this by advocating and demonstrating the concept of climbing the mountain by fair means, not beating/sieging it into submission.

 

I also made the analogy on cc.com about a piano; something to the affect of: You may not be able to play the piano today but rehearse it enough and you'll be able to play a Beethoven sonata. This, by the way, does not mean that you have the same skill level of someone who has worked up their skill level to the point where new music can be set in front of them and they can play through a sonata without falling all over themselves.

 

I made the comment that I felt that nearly any climber with the dedication could, using the present rules of sport climbing, pull off a 5.13 if they were allowed to rehearse the moves endlessly into submission. It might take them months or a year or whatever, but put up rules like that, and it opens the door to all kinds of faux-accomplishments. I picked 5.13 because a lot of folks see that as a BIG NUMBER! and it seems to be a usual number for when the on-sight leading often ends and the sieging begins. Some folks chimed in saying 5.13 wasn't such a big deal anymore....it's what 5.12 was 20 years ago or 5.11 25 years ago. They're all over the place now...Whatever, I was making a theoretical statement apparently lost on many.

 

Then the usual cc.com taunts began, and a few of the usual and predictable blow-hards came out with frat-boy challenges to collect a bet that Dwayner couldn't possibly climb any kind of 5.13 no longer how he tried. It was utterly childish. One major moderator on this site told me that it would be impossible for me (to which I replied that I hope he doesn't spread his crappy attitude to children). The school-yard buddies delivered their usual lame clichés: "put your money where..." and my award for the most pathetic of all time: "don't cash a check your *ss can't deliver"

Believe me, if I had a convenient crag nearby, the interest and inspiration, and importantly, the time (none of which I have), it would be very satisfying to engage in such a challenge myself....it's not an excuse...it's reality...(on the other hand, I don't have an inclination to respond to juvenile bets, but if I ever do, it will be on my own time and terms). Regardless, my concept still stands. Perhaps someone with an abundance of the factors that thwart me can prove me correct.

 

Now wasn't that fascinating?

 

Hi Dwayner. How have you been? Long time no speak.

 

ok enough chit-chat.

 

It's easy to say "Oh I could do that." I know, because I do it all the time. It's a confidence I have, but the time eventually comes when I step on to that which I have almost blithely dismissed, and thank goodness occasionally get my ass kicked. This is good for me! It smacks me of my arrogance! It lets me know that I need to try if I want to do something, and that nothing is given until it is actually accomplished, and also takes me to what I love about climbing: figuring stuff out.

 

Let me re-state that: until one has climbed something quite specific, well, they haven't climbed it. Rather self-evident, yes? No amount of rationalization, equivocation, explanation, prognostication, hubris, or ventriloquism can change this fact.

You should know this: before that dinosaur bone is in your hand, it isn't in your hand, and you don't know whether or not you will find it. Perhaps you have a good idea that a specific location might contain dinosaur bones and eggs and mummies and stuff, but since you haven't climbed even a 5.12, what makes you think you will find a mummy in your closet?

 

Until you actually step out from behind your excuses and attempt that which you so arrogantly dismiss, you will be nothing but an archaeologist lost in your closet.

 

Did you know that Andres Segovia spent most of his time practicing scales and etudes? Very simple stuff, rehearsing and rehearsing. Many artists do this. Personally I'm more pulled by the spirit of things and not just the mastery, but I admire mastery also.

 

You, Mister Don, need to be less arrogant and climb more, instead of always complaining about the state of climbing.

OMFG...so brilliant...damn...

[W]

So let's say the climb is 5.13, and someone thrashes their way up this thing after weeks of hang-dogging and rehearsal and than pulls the rope and "red-points" it. Is this person really a 5.13 climber versus someone who has worked their abilities to the point where they can actually lead it on-site?

 

It seems to me that on-site leading at this level of climbing has been made possible precisely because of rehearsing and practicing at even higher levels. You may be correct in stating that the above climber is not really a 5.13 climber if it takes them weeks or months to redpoint a .13; however, I would suspect that their efforts at this level is exactly why such a climber will walk up to almost any 5.12 and flash it onsight, exactly in the pure style you advocate. Which is to say, rehearsing and soforth has helped bring onsight grades way up from what they once were, or at least, brought them up much faster than they would have otherwise risen. And with these rising onsight standards, it's no accident that alpine style, and speed, in the mountains has evolved accordingly. Traditions are great, until stubborn adherence to them causes them to stifle progress.

 

Roll with it.

 

 

 

 

 

[RuMR]

or in dwayner's case: Roll in it...

[JayB]

Your sorry record of Alaskan clip-ups disqualifies you from commenting here...

[kevbone]

or in dwayner's case: Roll in it...

 

 

Or dig it up...then roll in it!

[pope]

hey kevbeenboned...ask dwayner about the ongoing "challenge/bet"...

 

There is nothing "on-going" and "the bet" was childish. Here's the story which directly relates:

 

A few years ago, there was a discussion about hang-dogging in which I described it as "siege climbing". The old school philosophy is that you climb from the bottom up, and if you fell, you were lowered to the ground and started over, or you trained on lower grades and worked your abilities higher until you were good enough to address the climb on its own terms.

Hang-dogging...hanging off your gear to rest, falling repeatedly while rehearsing the moves, was considered weak free-climbing, essentially aid, and bogus. It demonstrated that you weren't ready. So let's say the climb is 5.13, and someone thrashes their way up this thing after weeks of hang-dogging and rehearsal and than pulls the rope and "red-points" it. Is this person really a 5.13 climber versus someone who has worked their abilities to the point where they can actually lead it on-site?

 

An analogous tradition can be seen in the expedition vs. alpine tradition in mountaineering where alpine-style climbing is considered a stylistically superior means of obtaining a summit. Reinhold Messner epitomized this by advocating and demonstrating the concept of climbing the mountain by fair means, not beating/sieging it into submission.

 

I also made the analogy on cc.com about a piano; something to the affect of: You may not be able to play the piano today but rehearse it enough and you'll be able to play a Beethoven sonata. This, by the way, does not mean that you have the same skill level of someone who has worked up their skill level to the point where new music can be set in front of them and they can play through a sonata without falling all over themselves.

 

I made the comment that I felt that nearly any climber with the dedication could, using the present rules of sport climbing, pull off a 5.13 if they were allowed to rehearse the moves endlessly into submission. It might take them months or a year or whatever, but put up rules like that, and it opens the door to all kinds of faux-accomplishments. I picked 5.13 because a lot of folks see that as a BIG NUMBER! and it seems to be a usual number for when the on-sight leading often ends and the sieging begins. Some folks chimed in saying 5.13 wasn't such a big deal anymore....it's what 5.12 was 20 years ago or 5.11 25 years ago. They're all over the place now...Whatever, I was making a theoretical statement apparently lost on many.

 

Then the usual cc.com taunts began, and a few of the usual and predictable blow-hards came out with frat-boy challenges to collect a bet that Dwayner couldn't possibly climb any kind of 5.13 no longer how he tried. It was utterly childish. One major moderator on this site told me that it would be impossible for me (to which I replied that I hope he doesn't spread his crappy attitude to children). The school-yard buddies delivered their usual lame clichés: "put your money where..." and my award for the most pathetic of all time: "don't cash a check your *ss can't deliver"

Believe me, if I had a convenient crag nearby, the interest and inspiration, and importantly, the time (none of which I have), it would be very satisfying to engage in such a challenge myself....it's not an excuse...it's reality...(on the other hand, I don't have an inclination to respond to juvenile bets, but if I ever do, it will be on my own time and terms). Regardless, my concept still stands. Perhaps someone with an abundance of the factors that thwart me can prove me correct.

 

Now wasn't that fascinating?

 

Hi Dwayner. How have you been? Long time no speak.

 

ok enough chit-chat.

 

It's easy to say "Oh I could do that." I know, because I do it all the time. It's a confidence I have, but the time eventually comes when I step on to that which I have almost blithely dismissed, and thank goodness occasionally get my ass kicked. This is good for me! It smacks me of my arrogance! It lets me know that I need to try if I want to do something, and that nothing is given until it is actually accomplished, and also takes me to what I love about climbing: figuring stuff out.

 

Let me re-state that: until one has climbed something quite specific, well, they haven't climbed it. Rather self-evident, yes? No amount of rationalization, equivocation, explanation, prognostication, hubris, or ventriloquism can change this fact.

You should know this: before that dinosaur bone is in your hand, it isn't in your hand, and you don't know whether or not you will find it. Perhaps you have a good idea that a specific location might contain dinosaur bones and eggs and mummies and stuff, but since you haven't climbed even a 5.12, what makes you think you will find a mummy in your closet?

 

Until you actually step out from behind your excuses and attempt that which you so arrogantly dismiss, you will be nothing but an archaeologist lost in your closet.

 

Did you know that Andres Segovia spent most of his time practicing scales and etudes? Very simple stuff, rehearsing and rehearsing. Many artists do this. Personally I'm more pulled by the spirit of things and not just the mastery, but I admire mastery also.

 

You, Mister Don, need to be less arrogant and climb more, instead of always complaining about the state of climbing.

OMFG...so brilliant...damn...

 

Fascinating how liberal we've become with that adjective. Guess you have to consider the readership. Anyway, a number of our more annoying participants have echoed the notion that it is not appropriate to criticize an activity unless one has participated, especially if the activity required discipline and focus. In some cases this might be good advice, but in this particular situation there is an important consideration that has been conveniently ignored within this thread. I'll provide an analogous example. Suppose a professional baseball player is in the hunt for a home-run title and he finds that the players leading the race are injecting performance enhancing drugs. He thinks this is unethical and refuses to participate, yet knows without the drugs he probably won't be competitive. Does he have a right to denounce something he feels is not only poor style but is seriously damaging the integrity of a game he loves? I think he does, but ONLY if he takes the moral high ground and refuses to particpate in doping.

 

OK kids, you draw the parallels here. If you can't figure it out, perhaps you could PM that brilliant Sexy Mocha guy for the answers.

Edited August 3, 2007 by pope

[sexual_chocolate]

So pope, did you rehearse Brass Balls before you soloed it? heh.

[kevbone]

So pope, did you rehearse Brass Balls before you soloed it? heh.

 

Or did you pull out your "brass balls" and send onsight?

[pope]

So pope, did you rehearse Brass Balls before you soloed it? heh.

 

Or did you pull out your "brass balls" and send onsight?

 

Is this one of those activities that you have no right to comment on because you haven't done it yourself?

[sexual_chocolate]

So pope, did you rehearse Brass Balls before you soloed it? heh.

 

Or did you pull out your "brass balls" and send onsight?

 

Is this one of those activities that you have no right to comment on because you haven't done it yourself?

 

So pope, did you go and rehearse it? jeez, what poor form. it's unfortunate we are in a public forum and your buddy dwayner will see what you've been up to, you know, rehearsal and all. pfft.

[kevbone]

So pope, did you rehearse Brass Balls before you soloed it? heh.

 

Or did you pull out your "brass balls" and send onsight?

 

Is this one of those activities that you have no right to comment on because you haven't done it yourself?

 

No....this is NOT one of those activities!

[pope]

So pope, did you rehearse Brass Balls before you soloed it? heh.

 

Or did you pull out your "brass balls" and send onsight?

 

Is this one of those activities that you have no right to comment on because you haven't done it yourself?

 

No....this is NOT one of those activities!

 

Oh, so you free soloed Brass Balls? That's neat, maybe we CAN have this conversation.

[Raindawg]

Perhaps you have a good idea that a specific location might contain dinosaur bones and eggs and mummies and stuff, but since you haven't climbed even a 5.12, what makes you think you will find a mummy in your closet?

 

What the heck do you know about what I have and haven't climbed?(As a matter of fact, I have. It was difficult.)

Is it time for the gratuitous schvanz measuring/pissing for distance contest? I don't play that game.

You can get in line with all of the other people I don't know who seem to be experts on my life, BUT AREN'T.

 

By the way, dinosaurs have nothing whatsoever to do with my profession. Just as my profession has nothing to do with this discussion. Those of you who wish to belittle my professional life should display their own...starting with Kevbone...what do you do, Kevbone? How 'bout you, Sexy Cocoa? Tell us about your exciting professions so others can also drag it into the discussion.

 

[kevbone]

So pope, did you rehearse Brass Balls before you soloed it? heh.

 

Or did you pull out your "brass balls" and send onsight?

 

Is this one of those activities that you have no right to comment on because you haven't done it yourself?

 

No....this is NOT one of those activities!

 

Oh, so you free soloed Brass Balls? That's neat, maybe we CAN have this conversation.

 

What ever dude......its a simple question and by the tone of your writing I believe I know the answer.....

[pope]

So pope, did you rehearse Brass Balls before you soloed it? heh.

 

Or did you pull out your "brass balls" and send onsight?

 

Is this one of those activities that you have no right to comment on because you haven't done it yourself?

 

So pope, did you go and rehearse it? jeez, what poor form. it's unfortunate we are in a public forum and your buddy dwayner will see what you've been up to, you know, rehearsal and all. pfft.

 

Unless I hear otherwise, I'll assume you're a little out of your league on the topic of doing Brass Balls "leashless" and you probably shouldn't even start this conversation. I did it unroped after leading it several times, but there are important differences between this kind of rehearsal and what typically goes into climbing 5.13 these days.

 

1. In my rehearsal, I never fell, hung or aided.

 

2. In my rehearsal, I never left a mess behind.

 

3. For my performance, one could argue that rehearsal was just a little more important. There was a little bit more than a pink-point in the balance.

 

Finally, you'll read (in this thread, I believe) that I don't have a big problem with rehearsing, if that's what people find entertaining. If it's important to you to climb the next BIG NUMBER and you've got the time and desire to rehearse the snot out of something, feel free. But Dwayner's right in suggesting that this approach to climbing is what has trivialized 5.13 and that a climber who can barely manage a 5.12a flash could probably pink-point a 5.13. Thus, large numbers of anonymous climbers are doing it (maybe even Kevbone has managed this).

 

So, no problem with the style of hangdogging. It's not for me, but whatever. I'll just say that when you're bragging about your BIG NUMBERS, remember that you shouldn't trick yourself into thinking you can really climb that stuff. Also, make an extra effort not to leave a mess when you're done.

[kevbone]

Kevbone...what do you do, Kevbone? How 'bout you, Sexy Cocoa?

 

I never meant to make fun of your profession. Being Indiana Jones is cool as shit. Do you carry a whip?

[kevbone]

 

So, no problem with the style of hangdogging. It's not for me, but whatever. I'll just say that when you're bragging about your BIG NUMBERS, remember that you shouldn't trick yourself into thinking you can really climb that stuff. Also, make an extra effort not to leave a mess when you're done.

 

We finally agree on something.

[Raindawg]

 

I never meant to make fun of your profession. Being Indiana Jones is cool as sh*t.

 

I'm not Indiana Jones....he is a fabrication of a group of movie producers and screen-writers.

 

Do you carry a whip?

No.

 

You didn't answer the question. What do you do, Kevbone?

[RuMR]

So pope, did you rehearse Brass Balls before you soloed it? heh.

 

Or did you pull out your "brass balls" and send onsight?

 

Is this one of those activities that you have no right to comment on because you haven't done it yourself?

 

So pope, did you go and rehearse it? jeez, what poor form. it's unfortunate we are in a public forum and your buddy dwayner will see what you've been up to, you know, rehearsal and all. pfft.

 

Unless I hear otherwise, I'll assume you're a little out of your league on the topic of doing Brass Balls "leashless" and you probably shouldn't even start this conversation. I did it unroped after leading it several times, but there are important differences between this kind of rehearsal and what typically goes into climbing 5.13 these days.

 

1. In my rehearsal, I never fell, hung or aided.

 

2. In my rehearsal, I never left a mess behind.

 

3. For my performance, one could argue that rehearsal was just a little more important. There was a little bit more than a pink-point in the balance.

 

Finally, you'll read (in this thread, I believe) that I don't have a big problem with rehearsing, if that's what people find entertaining. If it's important to you to climb the next BIG NUMBER and you've got the time and desire to rehearse the snot out of something, feel free. But Dwayner's right in suggesting that this approach to climbing is what has trivialized 5.13 and that a climber who can barely manage a 5.12a flash could probably pink-point a 5.13. Thus, large numbers of anonymous climbers are doing it (maybe even Kevbone has managed this).

 

So, no problem with the style of hangdogging. It's not for me, but whatever. I'll just say that when you're bragging about your BIG NUMBERS, remember that you shouldn't trick yourself into thinking you can really climb that stuff. Also, make an extra effort not to leave a mess when you're done.

nobody but you two fucking tools has brought their personal accomplishments to the table...you two are the only braggarts around here, douchebag...

[RuMR]

So pope, did you rehearse Brass Balls before you soloed it? heh.

 

Or did you pull out your "brass balls" and send onsight?

 

Is this one of those activities that you have no right to comment on because you haven't done it yourself?

 

So pope, did you go and rehearse it? jeez, what poor form. it's unfortunate we are in a public forum and your buddy dwayner will see what you've been up to, you know, rehearsal and all. pfft.

 

Unless I hear otherwise, I'll assume you're a little out of your league on the topic of doing Brass Balls "leashless" and you probably shouldn't even start this conversation. I did it unroped after leading it several times, but there are important differences between this kind of rehearsal and what typically goes into climbing 5.13 these days.

 

1. In my rehearsal, I never fell, hung or aided.

 

2. In my rehearsal, I never left a mess behind.

3. For my performance, one could argue that rehearsal was just a little more important. There was a little bit more than a pink-point in the balance.

 

Finally, you'll read (in this thread, I believe) that I don't have a big problem with rehearsing, if that's what people find entertaining. If it's important to you to climb the next BIG NUMBER and you've got the time and desire to rehearse the snot out of something, feel free. But Dwayner's right in suggesting that this approach to climbing is what has trivialized 5.13 and that a climber who can barely manage a 5.12a flash could probably pink-point a 5.13. Thus, large numbers of anonymous climbers are doing it (maybe even Kevbone has managed this).

 

So, no problem with the style of hangdogging. It's not for me, but whatever. I'll just say that when you're bragging about your BIG NUMBERS, remember that you shouldn't trick yourself into thinking you can really climb that stuff. Also, make an extra effort not to leave a mess when you're done.

 

oh i don't know about that...there's some damn fugly-ass pics floating around this here bb...disgrace if you ask me...

[RuMR]

..so tell me stud, why don't you solo anymore????

 

When my mother found out, it made her cry. Real men don't make their mothers cry.

why, just last night, i had your momma hollerin' and cryin' when i walked out on her!

[RuMR]

So let's say the climb is 5.13, and someone thrashes their way up this thing after weeks of hang-dogging and rehearsal and than pulls the rope and "red-points" it. Is this person really a 5.13 climber versus someone who has worked their abilities to the point where they can actually lead it on-site?

 

It seems to me that on-site leading at this level of climbing has been made possible precisely because of rehearsing and practicing at even higher levels. You may be correct in stating that the above climber is not really a 5.13 climber if it takes them weeks or months to redpoint a .13; however, I would suspect that their efforts at this level is exactly why such a climber will walk up to almost any 5.12 and flash it onsight, exactly in the pure style you advocate. Which is to say, rehearsing and soforth has helped bring onsight grades way up from what they once were, or at least, brought them up much faster than they would have otherwise risen. And with these rising onsight standards, it's no accident that alpine style, and speed, in the mountains has evolved accordingly. Traditions are great, until stubborn adherence to them causes them to stifle progress.

 

Roll with it.

 

 

 

 

yo mark,

 

when you back in town?

[RuMR]

So pope, did you rehearse Brass Balls before you soloed it? heh.

 

Or did you pull out your "brass balls" and send onsight?

 

Is this one of those activities that you have no right to comment on because you haven't done it yourself?

 

So pope, did you go and rehearse it? jeez, what poor form. it's unfortunate we are in a public forum and your buddy dwayner will see what you've been up to, you know, rehearsal and all. pfft.

 

Unless I hear otherwise, I'll assume you're a little out of your league on the topic of doing Brass Balls "leashless" and you probably shouldn't even start this conversation. I did it unroped after leading it several times, but there are important differences between this kind of rehearsal and what typically goes into climbing 5.13 these days.

 

1. In my rehearsal, I never fell, hung or aided.

 

2. In my rehearsal, I never left a mess behind.

 

3. For my performance, one could argue that rehearsal was just a little more important. There was a little bit more than a pink-point in the balance.

 

Finally, you'll read (in this thread, I believe) that I don't have a big problem with rehearsing, if that's what people find entertaining. If it's important to you to climb the next BIG NUMBER and you've got the time and desire to rehearse the snot out of something, feel free. But Dwayner's right in suggesting that this approach to climbing is what has trivialized 5.13 and that a climber who can barely manage a 5.12a flash could probably pink-point a 5.13. Thus, large numbers of anonymous climbers are doing it (maybe even Kevbone has managed this).

 

So, no problem with the style of hangdogging. It's not for me, but whatever. I'll just say that when you're bragging about your BIG NUMBERS, remember that you shouldn't trick yourself into thinking you can really climb that stuff. Also, make an extra effort not to leave a mess when you're done.

so i guess you could say you aren't really a 5.10 soloist by your line of logic, eh?

[kevbone]

You didn't answer the question. What do you do, Kevbone?

 

Lets just say I work in the insurance world. You know....I gotta ya covered.