Splitter Gear New Cams

[Brian-boulder]

I am one of the owners of Splitter Gear and I just wanted to see if anyone had any questions or comments on our new camming units. I saw an old discussion about our cams here last fall and I had some disagreements about some of the comments on our cams and I just wanted to make myself available to answer any questions.

Thanks-Brian

Splitter Gear

[max]

Brian, I don't know you from Adam. But I can tell you must be retarded. You're a fool for starting this thread. I'm assuming you read the thread in it's entirety. "I had some disagreements about some of the comments on our cams..." and I'd even venture to say you've thought long and hard the last several months, forming positive responces to the most critical question. But I can't believe you read much else on this board. You will gain nothing positive from an open forum on you "revolutionary camming device". I wonder what you thought would be the end of this thred. "Hey Brian, thanks for the info! We were so wrong about your junk! We love it now! thanks for stopping by." However you thought this thread would end is wrong, unless you think it ends up with you storming away or just disappearing, and the crowd chearing for blood.

You will be sacrificed, sacrificed to the God Spray, to a God of power.

And bitter death it will be.

Please consider this a message from a concerned friend.

dave brannon

[Dru]

ya you could have called yourself spam-man instead of brian-boulder, too.

[W]

Brian,

i'm one of the people who gave the thumbs down to your cams.

Where do we disagree?

Perhaps it was the route and nature of the climbing, but I just found it difficult to get stable placements. They were terrible in flared scars. Maybe they just seemed unfamiliar and needed some practice, but typically gear either works intuitively or it doesn't. My partner didn't like them either, and many other people I know have had the same concerns about spooky, shifty placements. Maybe on "splitter" cracks they'd be better, but we were using them for A2 to A3 seams.

I mentioned it before: have you considered tapering the heads giving a two cam competitor to the hybrid alien? This might require increasing the depth of the cam along the axle, but that might provide a much more stable and secure placement.

Currently to what type of application do you feel these cams are best suited?

[Rodchester]

Hey W....as your attorney I must remind you that if you give away such a damn good idea he can use it and get rich....and you get noithing.

Get a patent first.

I have to admmit I have never used your cams brian. Give us some idea why you think they are actually better....warning this is a tough and experienced crowd you are facing.

[W]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rodchester:

Hey W....as your attorney

I must remind you that if you give away such a damn good idea he can use it and get rich....and you get noithing.

---

Oh, but I'll be able to sit back in the shadows as the anonymous person who did a good deed for all and asked for nothing in return...

[erik]

with a couple freeones i am sure that i can get a better idea about these little guys......

[ 03-14-2002: Message edited by: erik ]

[IceIceBaby]

Yeh Brian,

I need some samples and I promise you I will give you a written essay once I’m done with them just check my post about Wildthings backpack

I definitely need some to give some

[W]

So...Brian, where are you? I wasn't flaming you in my last post. My questions were serious.

You said you were available to take questions. We're waiting for answers. I am, anyway. Sorry if this sounds impatient, but I have an enquiring mind. Did Max piss you off or something?

[IceIceBaby]

Brian,

So you not about to take me on my offer…

u really driving a hard bargain

[Brian-boulder]

I apologize if you think I was spamming. I had nothing to do with the previous thread from last fall(which I just discovered in a search) and wanted to give some feedback from someone in the company. I will give no more replies if you wish, I just thought you might want some input from someone who has been intimately involved in the design of these cams from the start. The reason I believe in these cams is because they work. Period. Do they work in all situations? No. Does any cam? Again, no. I am not going to reply to every emotional and off the cuff response to these cams, but I will respond to specific questions or criticisms about our units.

First, we have introduced two lines of cams, the 2Cams and 4Cams. The 4Cams are an adaptation of the 2Cam design, but uses four camming units, for those situations (flaring pin scars in granite, uneven cracks) where 2Cams are not always optimal. This allows for more variation and flares while mainting a solid placement. I really believe that our 4Cam units are some of the best out there, bar none. However, the 2Cam really excels in those situations where other cams really do not work. In some pin scars (primarily in softer rock), shallow cracks, splitter cracks, or pod placements the 2Cams will gain a solid placment where other cams simply do not go. Even Climbing magazine just stated "Nonetheless, aid climbers will find these units opening new possibilities for shallow placements." "2Cam-best shallow crack peice in review." As well, on many routes leaders have to decide if they should use a small hole for protection or as a handhold. Often, I am able to slip a 2Cam in and still leave enough room for a few fingers. As well, our 2Cam weighs about the same as a comparably sized nut. This can have far reaching affects, especially for an alpine rack where every ounce matters, and when you are able to carry active pro for the same weight, it really does help. Other notes:-We have been playing with the idea of a tapered head since the start. It seems only natural and would sit better in many pin scars. However, there are several disadvantages as well, and really limits the piece as an aid-tool. We will be introducing a second generation of cams this summer and fall which will show several changes including a softer cable and smaller sizes(really useful).(We also may be introducing a tapered head in some of our smaller sizes where machining the taper is much easier. Our larger sizes are extruded and is a barrier to tapering the head.)

I hope I answered some of you questions and I know not everyone is going to love our cams. All I can state is that I do(as well as many other and very well respected climbers), and truly believe they are a positive addition to many racks. Even if you hate em, I don't care. I just hope you enjoy climbing and find protection that suits your needs. We are introducing these cams because we love climbing and think we have something really useful, not to sell poorly desigined gear that does not meet a real need.Brian-Splitter Gear

[Dru]

what is the idea behind the 6-lobed head mentioned in climbing mag, aside from making something weird?

[W]

Hey Brian,

Thanks for your response.

We only had the two-cam units on the PO Wall. I haven't seen them, but I'm guessing that the four cam units might have worked better for what we were dealing with up there.

If you look on the old thread, I indicated that the shallow, boxed out pin scars of the Shield might have been a great place for using them. Your info gives me a better idea of the best uses-particularly the one for placing gear in the only available handhold/crack and leaving enough room for your fingers.

As you indicated, these cams are rather specialized.

While my posts and certainly some others may have come off slightly abrasive, I might also point something out to you from the standpoint of marketing and public relations.

Nowhere have you indicated that you have "listened" at all to any of the critical review of your gear. Instead you are openly refuting the criticism of your cams by real climbers from the public, offering up a glowing review by Climbing Magazine and citing unnamed "very respected climbers" who love your gear. I don't doubt that some people like them. While expressing my personal displeasure with them I have also maintained that perhaps I didn't use them enough to get the feel for them, or that maybe I'm just uncoordinated and can't figure them out. Nonetheless, your response and attitude towards my field review (and I might add, I think a grade VI El Cap nail-up adequately qualifies as a good test run) are on record to quote you: "Even if you hate them, I don't care". Really? So with Climbing Magazine and some "respected" climbers on your team, the general climbing public's opinion doesn't matter? That's a shitty way to do business, Brian. People like me are how you will make your money, not from sponsored magazine climbers who only get free gear. I'm not saying my criticisms of your gear are either 100% valid or the last word on them. They are just one man's opinion. You've tried to address my concerns on one hand, but then you invalidate all of that as you finish by dismissing me away with all the accolades of more accomplished climbers, a commercial publication, and an attitude of indifference. So if that's the way you really feel, I don't care about you, or your new gear, either, and I'll be sure to tell my many friends, if they ask. Aliens, Camalots, HB offsets and leeper cam hooks currently provide the protection I need, I am enjoying myself and thank you for your concern.

[Brian-boulder]

Have you ever ripped out a cam in sandstone? After doing so, all you see is four steaks on the sides of the crack!

The 6Cam is a specialty piece but does not look, or function as freakishly as one might think. It is about the width of a normal 4 camming unit and if you look at the pictures of our cams, it is basically a 4Cam with a 2Cam sandwiched in the middle. With the wieght advantages of our cams, this peice is still light and is great in softer stone situations. In really hard stone, even a cam with minimal surface area will usually not blow out the rock, but there are many cases where the more surface area, the better. (think metolious fat cams) But if you have that much surface area, it is best to break it up into as many planes or lobes as possible to account for flares in the crack or irregular surfaces. You may not believe it, but this winter you will see these cams on many climbing shop shelves.

[erik]

word up 'w' we dont like that front range tude' around here boy!!!

ie: climbing mag reviews: i wouldn't wipe my ass with them cause they already reak of shit....much like a front range attitude...isnt climbing rag located in the front range??? same with the other rag?? arent you located in the front range??? hmm..............

like i said lets us try them out and we will give a some opinions on what regular climbers think of them.....i dont climb a5 or .12 trad but i get out there play all the time.......

have fun and be safeerik

and why cannot we email or pm you???

[Brian-boulder]

W-Thanks for the reply. Sorry about my tone of indifference and me invalidating your comments. I absolutely did not intend to state you were an unaccomplished climber, and anyone who has completed the PO wall (i haven't) is overly qualified to give their opinion on our gear. I agree that feedback from our customers is extremely important. Our cams have been under a constant state of change from the beginning, due to constant feedback from climbers like you. We have been extremely responsive to most comments, but there is a point where we have to believe in our design, put it to market, and defend our decisions for the design that was used.

Thanks for the input.

PS-Our original 2Cam (red size) was specifically designed after a trip up Salathe and those dissappointing huge pin scars. The 2Cams do work really well in those enlarged pin scars where the normal pro is a bigger piton(sometimes bong!).

[Dru]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian-boulder:

Have you ever ripped out a cam in sandstone? After doing so, all you see is four steaks on the sides of the crack! The 6Cam is a specialty piece but does not look, or function as freakishly as one might think. It is about the width of a normal 4 camming unit and if you look at the pictures of our cams, it is basically a 4Cam with a 2Cam sandwiched in the middle. With the wieght advantages of our cams, this peice is still light and is great in softer stone situations. In really hard stone, even a cam with minimal surface area will usually not blow out the rock, but there are many cases where the more surface area, the better. (think metolious fat cams) But if you have that much surface area, it is best to break it up into as many planes or lobes as possible to account for flares in the crack or irregular surfaces. You may not believe it, but this winter you will see these cams on many climbing shop shelves.

---

The only cam I ripped out was a Tri Cam and it left one big groove and 2 ski tracks on the other side.

I can't figure out the trigger wiring for the 6 cam. does it have 2 sets of wires on one side of the shaft and one set on the other?

why not just make a 4 cam with wider lobes like the metolius fat cams did? wouldnt that be lighter than going with 6 cams?

[W]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian-boulder:

W-Thanks for the reply. Sorry about my tone of indifference and me invalidating your comments. I absolutely did not intend to state you were an unaccomplished climber, and anyone who has completed the PO wall (i haven't) is overly qualified to give their opinion on our gear. I agree that feedback from our customers is extremely important. Our cams have been under a constant state of change from the beginning, due to constant feedback from climbers like you. We have been extremely responsive to most comments, but there is a point where we have to believe in our design, put it to market, and defend our decisions for the design that was used. Thanks for the input.PS-Our original 2Cam (red size) was specifically designed after a trip up Salathe and those dissappointing huge pin scars. The 2Cams do work really well in those enlarged pin scars where the normal pro is a bigger piton(sometimes bong!).

---

Brian, Fair enough, and thanks for responding.As I stated, I understand the niche you are trying to fill with your cams, and I do see some potential with them. While belief in your design and putting them to market is one thing, I would still just be very attentive to the idea of "defending" it. It can be difficult to listen to critical review if you are taking a stand. I wasn't trying to go in for the kill. In the long run, if you are developing a revolutionary product, defense of your design has no value, for the product concept should be treated as one of continual evolving with use and user input. As your products are new, and despite some positive feedback, even you must admit they cannot yet be considered "tried and true". I might add, I wasn't looking for validation as a climber or for my accomplishments, I would have felt the same reaction if my review comments were based on experimenting with them while doing my first ever lead climb on After Six in Yosemite. I was trying to illustrate that our use of the gear amounted to far more than noodling around it on some lazy afternoon in a boulder heap, it was on a multi-day big wall climb. The technical difficulty was not the important issue. Everyone's opinion, top to bottom on the skill level scale, has some weight, just remember to keep it in perspective. In fact, the beginner might be of great importance, for they haven't bought a rack yet and are trying to find out what to get first.Thanks, and good luck.

[Brian-boulder]

The 6 cam trigger wires are still a little bit of a problem, but if you think left to right, it would be 2cams, trigger wires, trigger wires, cams, trigger wires, cams.

We have found that the 6Cam is no harder to produce that a 4Cam with wider cams and 6Cams really hold well in flares(more points of contact) and uneven terrain than 4 wider cams. Other cam companies have thought of this but couldn't put six cams on without it seeming like a very wide and heavy beast.

[max]

quote:

---

Originally posted by todd:[qb][/qb]

---

[ 03-18-2002: Message edited by: max ]

[max]

quote:

---

Originally posted by todd:

right max - that must be the front range "tude" that erik mentioned - i was going to disagree with erik about those statements but you proved him right earlier in the thread.

---

Damn. I just wrote a frickin' thesis on this topic and then did something stupid... time to re-write it. Shit!

ok, I'm not sure what you're sayinghere. Between my inability to decifer what erik means and what you are saying about what he said... it confuses me. Mama always said I was a special child!

What I was trying to get at in my original post is that you (brian) are mislead if you believe you will get rational, non-insulting responces to a question about splitter gear on this board, especially considering S.G's history here and the "rado attitude" I'll discuss below. As it would turn out, there are people here capable of a reasonable, adult conversation (Thank W!). But, I bet on average, Brian recieved a "nice" set of responces. No offense to Brian intended (even though I said he must be an idiot! woops.)

About the "rado 'tude": I think some of the shit flung this way from cc.com is an indication of "WA nativism". Now I know there are people on cc.com that have experinced the boulder scene and have legitimate gripes. Often, I laugh at thier accurate slandering. But I suspect there are others who use the CO sterotype simply as a way of associating themselves with an identity, the identity of the hard-core WA trad climber. I base this belief primarily on the responces I've recieved from some cc.com'ers labeling me as a yuppy scum fuck bolt clipper (ok, that's a little strong, but the idea's still there). To you who'd use this sterotype as an ego boost: try climbing. It makes you feel good!

dave

[Dru]

Them's strong words from a yuppy scum fuck bolt clipper!!!!!!!!!

[max]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dru:

Them's strong words from a yuppy scum fuck bolt clipper!!!!!!!!!

---

Boy, you should hear what I have to say after a double tall blonde half-soy skim latte!

[Dru]

quote:

---

Originally posted by max:

Boy, you should hear what I have to say after a double tall blonde half-soy skim latte!

---

I wouldnt mind a double tall blonde myself, as long as they know how to belay and don't talk too much

[todd]

right max - that must be the front range "tude" that erik mentioned - i was going to disagree with erik about those statements but you proved him right earlier in the thread. anyway, to set the record straight, brian-boulder didnt start the thread, i did. i wanted to spread the word about a product i am excited about - nothing more. and i am still using splitter gear cams, and i still like them. of course they do have limitations, but i still find that often they work well where nothing else will work at all. as w alluded to, i am also still getting used to using them - when i see placements my brain doesnt always automatically think "yellow splitter gear 2cam" because they are still relatively new to me. im starting to really see them come into their own on finger tip laybacking type stuff - for example certain parts of snake at squamish, romulan territory or loose ends at lumpy, etc. - they fit really well in thin, shallow flakes. hope you all find the same.