Discuss

[sexual_chocolate]

The arrival and persistence of GWB in the oval office, coming on top of the failure of any of the various 60's utopia's to materialize, the collapse of the Soviet Block, the broad retreat of Socialism in nearly every venue around the world, the ascendance of the religious Right, etc, etc seems to have been to much for certain elements in the Left to accept as a consequence of anything that could be understood or explained outside of the paradigm of a monumental conspiracy that's far too intricate and subtle for the average person on the street to notice or comprehend, much less resist.

 

Hence, among certain elements of the political Left, we have witnessed the emergence and popular appeal of paranoid delusions that rival anything dreamed up by the black-helicopter crowd in their intensity and scope. Once a virtually monopoly owned by the right, now a shared franchise.

 

 

 

 

 

wow, a conspiracy theory about a conspiracy theory. Interesting.

[JayB]

" dunno. I expect that if my city and country were occupied under similar conditions, I would come to hate/fear the combat troops on the ground, who are responsible for going door-to-door to secure the area, the people who daily make decisions about who lives, who dies, because they carry the weapons.

 

I'm not sure which would be more rational, but I think focusing a fair amount of your hatred on the physical, local representatives of the occupying power would be a natural response.

 

And I expect that I also would partake in subversive measures to take back my country."

 

 

 

You do realize that the folks burning the effigy in question were Americans, not Iraqis. Not sure this will alter your analysis of this matter in any way, but thought that it would be worth pointing out.

[JayB]

The arrival and persistence of GWB in the oval office, coming on top of the failure of any of the various 60's utopia's to materialize, the collapse of the Soviet Block, the broad retreat of Socialism in nearly every venue around the world, the ascendance of the religious Right, etc, etc seems to have been to much for certain elements in the Left to accept as a consequence of anything that could be understood or explained outside of the paradigm of a monumental conspiracy that's far too intricate and subtle for the average person on the street to notice or comprehend, much less resist.

 

Hence, among certain elements of the political Left, we have witnessed the emergence and popular appeal of paranoid delusions that rival anything dreamed up by the black-helicopter crowd in their intensity and scope. Once a virtually monopoly owned by the right, now a shared franchise.

 

 

 

 

 

wow, a conspiracy theory about a conspiracy theory. Interesting.

 

If the conspirator in question is the sum-total of all of the political realities that have characterized the last 30 odd years, then perhaps.

 

And - shouldn't you be feverishly compiling the documents necessary to refinance out of the option-ARMS before the incipient credit-tightening precludes your ability to do so?

[knotzen]

You do realize that the folks burning the effigy in question were Americans, not Iraqis. Not sure this will alter your analysis of this matter in any way, but thought that it would be worth pointing out.

Oh, sheesh. In that case, what they're doing is kinda dumb, but I understand that peeps want to get the message out to stop the war.

 

I heard on NPR an interview with one of the leaders of the group that "occupied" the offices of Sen. Cantwell, Sen. Murray, etc., last week. She pointed out that they don't expect that particular action to have an effect, per se, but the overall purpose is to bring attention to the effort to stop the war.

 

But yeah, this effigy-burning seems kind of sophomoric, then.

 

[knotzen]

OTOH, they're doing something to effect the change they want to see. That's cool.

[JayB]

The folks burning the effigy were Anarchists. Again, not sure that will change the analysis, but...

 

 

[cj001f]

What's interesting is the prevalence and persistence of this kind of paranoid conspiracy mongering in an open society. I used to see think this kind of thinking was symptomatic of the limits on the distribution and exchange of information that were only possible in politically repressive states, but I've had to reconsider that point as of late. Despite the proliferation of information sources available to the average citizen over the course of the past 15 years or so, these tendencies, if anything, have increased, especially on the Left.

 

In light of this phenomenon, I've become convinced that paranoia has less to do with poor access to information than a kind of persistent political frustration that results when it appears as though your side is either marginalized and powerless, or has lost the argument and seen the tides of culture and popular opinion seemed to have turn decisively away from the values, politics, and beliefs that you would like to see prevail. Not only that, but things are so far gone that attempts to redress the problem through conventional political or intellectual means seem completely hopeless.

 

Perhaps correct.

 

In defense of the Kashmiri - Kashmir is by no means an open society, and it is most certainly being occupied by a foreign power (namely Hindu India) - recently there's been a scandal where government troops would randomly select and shoot "insurgents" who had demonstrably done nothing wrong and had no links to anyone.

[knotzen]

The folks burning the effigy were Anarchists. Again, not sure that will change the analysis, but...

 

 

OK, I quit.

 

[JayB]

Agreed. Much easier to understand how folks came to hold such perspectives, and to a certain extent absolve them of responsibility for them when they are shaped under such circumstances. Much tougher to extent the same sentiments towards anyone who lives in a free society.

[sexual_chocolate]

If the conspirator in question is the sum-total of all of the political realities that have characterized the last 30 odd years, then perhaps.

 

And - shouldn't you be feverishly compiling the documents necessary to refinance out of the option-ARMS before the incipient credit-tightening precludes your ability to do so?

 

one man's sum-total is evidently quite different than another's; selectivity is often the hallmark of theories of conspiracy.

 

But, since we were talking about mortgages....won't Hadrian's wall protect me from danger?

ARMs aren't practical for my needs. 30 yr fixed works best with what we are doing. now if I was to plan a quick re-sell, then an interest-only would be the only logical option. You see, it's really about your needs, jayb.

 

were you calling for federal intervention in the mortgage market, btw? things are really heating up it seems, with Goldman Sachs' quote "The direct macroeconomic effects of subprime stress are likely to be small" seemingly becoming dated rather quickly.

Do you think that the "market" should have been more tightly regulated by the feds inre to the lending practices seen in the last decade?

[Stonehead]

If the conspirator in question is the sum-total of all of the political realities that have characterized the last 30 odd years, then perhaps.

 

And - shouldn't you be feverishly compiling the documents necessary to refinance out of the option-ARMS before the incipient credit-tightening precludes your ability to do so?

 

one man's sum-total is evidently quite different than another's; selectivity is often the hallmark of theories of conspiracy.

 

 

There are conspiracy theories and there are conspiracy theories. There are some like David Icke who make a solitary living by pushing these ideas, basically the idea that there is something hidden going on behind the scenes, a sort of Gnostic belief. Then, there are the conspiracy ideas such as the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

 

[gvideo]6860946590182985661[/gvideo]

 

The fact that there are absurd or paranoid conspiracies but by having enough truth interspersed within that unsophisticated people would be duped does not negate the existence of real conspiracies.

 

Perception and selection are intimately related. There is a whole industry committed to managing perception. The public relations business acts as a filter to affect your perception, consequently, your worldview. Some people call it magic.

 

It's really interesting to delve into the psychology of magic. I'm not talking about the supernatural but about how the mind works.

Magic is not a thing or a physical act, but a state of mind that approaches the sublime but is more aptly referred to as phantasmagorical. Magic occurs at the intersection of a performer and an audience. There is intentionality to the perception. A stone that looks like an eagle is not magic, regardless of whether or not it is carved to represent the physical traits of an eagle. A sculpture maybe a catalyst to an altered state of mind, but I am reticent to call a sculpture magical. Some panoramas feel almost magical to me, but real magic is dynamic and ephemeral. Magic is the process of engineering an experience where reality emerges as it cannot be, and yet the audience is compelled to set aside their disbelief and flow with the experience as long as it lasts.

--http://authorsbusinessplan.blogspot.com/2006/12/what-are-you-willing-to-make-happen-pt.html

 

Every thing possible to be believ'd is an image of truth.

--William Blake

 

[AlpineK]

Fuckin' long haired, hippy freaks

 

xtqy4DTHGqg

 

Yeah! my favorite band from Jr High

[cj001f]

Agreed. Much easier to understand how folks came to hold such perspectives, and to a certain extent absolve them of responsibility for them when they are shaped under such circumstances. Much tougher to extent the same sentiments towards anyone who lives in a free society.

 

Yes.

 

After reading the local newspapers account of the avalanche at Gulmarg - where they got the victims name, age, location of burial, time of burial, and the identity of the rescuers wrong, I can easily understand why locals would discredit anything read in that paper.

[Stonehead]

Well, that specific example shows perhaps an erosion of confidence in media as authority.

 

Debunking, that's another story. For instance, remember the incubator story in the leadup to Gulf War I? When contemplating war, beware of babies in incubators

 

Seems that PR firm, Hill & Knowlton was instrumental in planting this story in the press in order to arouse public sentiment against the Iraqis.

 

Talking about persuasion, look at all the effort going into presenting Iran as a pariah state bent on formenting trouble. So the UN Security Council votes today on greater sanctions against Iran. The major members of the Council are united in their resolve but some of the lesser, and temporary, members such Qatar are trying to shift the focus from one that is strictly aimed at Iran to one that looks to the greater region.

 

There is talk that the entire region should be non-nuclear and that means bringing Israel into this. It is strongly suspected that Israel has nukes and it definitely has the capacity to field such weapons and the resolve to use them against aggressors. Does the fact that the Holocaust occurred, absolve the Israelis of abiding to a common framework for peace in the Middle East?

 

Ok, I may be talking out of my ass here but shouldn't everything be on the table?

 

 

Oh, BTW, you'll find the Clif notes version of The Big Lebowski here: http://www.chilloutzone.de/files/player.swf?b=15&l=161&u=ILLUMllSOOAvIF%2F%2FP%5FLxP92A42lCRCHXnCEjXRXAS%2Fc

Edited March 24, 2007 by Stonehead

[joblo7]

Agreed. Much easier to understand how folks came to hold such perspectives, and to a certain extent absolve them of responsibility for them when they are shaped under such circumstances. Much tougher to extent the same sentiments towards anyone who lives in a free society.

 

remove these words from your language : conspiracy,leftist,lunatic,anarchist,unsubstantiated,according -to-the- pentagon,the-white-house-says,according-to -ret-general, unconfirmed-sources-tell-cnn/fox/abc/'tever,paranoia,delusion,perspective,whack -job, unpatriotic,communist,et al..

then you can talk....if not then you are listening to yourself spin. notin' more

 

that crap is baggage. you cant move forward,dragging all that . if you are satisfied with the amount of truth you can 'handle' , then fine, spin it up, fluff it up and look pretty .truth takes courage.fluff is cheap.

[joblo7]

Well, that specific example shows perhaps an erosion of confidence in media as authority.

 

Debunking, that's another story. For instance, remember the incubator story in the leadup to Gulf War I? When contemplating war, beware of babies in incubators

 

Seems that PR firm, Hill & Knowlton was instrumental in planting this story in the press in order to arouse public sentiment against the Iraqis.

 

Talking about persuasion, look at all the effort going into presenting Iran as a pariah state bent on formenting trouble. So the UN Security Council votes today on greater sanctions against Iran. The major members of the Council are united in their resolve but some of the lesser, and temporary, members such Qatar are trying to shift the focus from one that is strictly aimed at Iran to one that looks to the greater region.

 

There is talk that the entire region should be non-nuclear and that means bringing Israel into this. It is strongly suspected that Israel has nukes and it definitely has the capacity to field such weapons and the resolve to use them against aggressors. Does the fact that the Holocaust occurred, absolve the Israelis of abiding to a common framework for peace in the Middle East?

 

Ok, I may be talking out of my ass here but shouldn't everything be on the table?

 

 

Oh, BTW, you'll find the Clif notes version of The Big Lebowski here: http://www.chilloutzone.de/files/player.swf?b=15&l=161&u=ILLUMllSOOAvIF%2F%2FP%5FLxP92A42lCRCHXnCEjXRXAS%2Fc

 

 

 

on the right track.

[ashw_justin]

The folks burning the effigy were Anarchists. Again, not sure that will change the analysis, but...

 

 

Care to explain? Are you saying that these kids would be burning books instead, if the trillion dollars were being spent on books instead of bombs? Their message (albeit offensive) is pretty clear: down with the war. But let's go ahead and keep pretending that only radical fringe groups feel this strongly about it.

[JayB]

If the conspirator in question is the sum-total of all of the political realities that have characterized the last 30 odd years, then perhaps.

 

And - shouldn't you be feverishly compiling the documents necessary to refinance out of the option-ARMS before the incipient credit-tightening precludes your ability to do so?

 

one man's sum-total is evidently quite different than another's; selectivity is often the hallmark of theories of conspiracy.

 

But, since we were talking about mortgages....won't Hadrian's wall protect me from danger?

ARMs aren't practical for my needs. 30 yr fixed works best with what we are doing. now if I was to plan a quick re-sell, then an interest-only would be the only logical option. You see, it's really about your needs, jayb.

 

were you calling for federal intervention in the mortgage market, btw? things are really heating up it seems, with Goldman Sachs' quote "The direct macroeconomic effects of subprime stress are likely to be small" seemingly becoming dated rather quickly.

Do you think that the "market" should have been more tightly regulated by the feds inre to the lending practices seen in the last decade?

 

Selectivity may is a minor element in relation to the conviction that events cannot be explained satisfactorily without recourse to a particular intelligence or agency that orchestrated a particular set of events. Conspiracy theories are to history what intelligent design is to evolution. Did I specify a particular actor that orchestrated global affairs over the course of the past thirty years with the specific intention of cultivating paranoid tendencies in the political left?

 

"Do you think that the "market" should have been more tightly regulated by the feds inre to the lending practices seen in the last decade?"

 

In short, yes.

 

 

[joblo7]

you prefer 'w''s conspiracy theory about beige guys with plastic knives . no air force. missing planes.lucky land/stocks deals.etc etc fine .

 

someday , the ridicule will hit you.

[Rafael_H]

Agreed. Much easier to understand how folks came to hold such perspectives, and to a certain extent absolve them of responsibility for them when they are shaped under such circumstances. Much tougher to extent the same sentiments towards anyone who lives in a free society.

 

remove these words from your language : conspiracy,leftist,lunatic,anarchist,unsubstantiated,according -to-the- pentagon,the-white-house-says,according-to -ret-general, unconfirmed-sources-tell-cnn/fox/abc/'tever,paranoia,delusion,perspective,whack -job, unpatriotic,communist,et al..

then you can talk....if not then you are listening to yourself spin. notin' more

 

that crap is baggage. you cant move forward,dragging all that . if you are satisfied with the amount of truth you can 'handle' , then fine, spin it up, fluff it up and look pretty .truth takes courage.fluff is cheap.

 

Hmmm, so what, "de-puff" and feel insignificant?! Or God forbid start anew looking for the real truth, squelch ego... Noooo, please no!

 

(can't believe i am reading and even posting in spray - got tired reading about running )

[Stonehead]

...Conspiracy theories are to history what intelligent design is to evolution.

 

Whew... that took a while to parse.

 

Let’s see if I understand correctly. Intelligent Design implies that a directed consciousness underlies the biotic changes that have occurred since the dawn of life on earth. It is a form of teleology. And that is a sort of metanarrative, so there’s some linearity inherent.

 

In contrast, we take an orthodox view of evolution that says that there is no linearity with respect to design. There is in the sense of contingency in that the eye developed from primitive photoreceptors, not ex nihilo. But, even though plants also respond to light, they will not develop eyes. So, you have to have suitable precursors for it to evolve into something more complex. The ear, for example, it evolved from the modification of the jaw bones.

 

Evolution is not forward-looking; rather it is backward-looking. It does not have an end-design in mind. It cannot even be said to have ‘mind’. Intelligent Design differs in that it postulates that an end-design informs everything.

 

The disbelief in metanarratives characterizes the postmodern view of history. But wait, conspiracy theory implies specifically that a human agency is the director, and often, in that view, a human agency strives to disproportionately acquire power at the expense of the masses, I mean, with respect to a grand conspiracy. I’d have a hard time believing as Philip K. Dick said once, “The Empire never died.”. But in more recent history there is a sense of the formation of political blocs much as in the way outlined by George Orwell, Aldous Huxley, etc. Add technological advances into the mixture and one can imagine the very real possibility of a ‘total control state’. How 'bout some potential paranoia with your morning coffee, eh?

 

I don’t know about anyone else but I tend to lump things such as political machinations, cover-ups, covert operations, etc. into the conspiracy category. There are very real examples of the preceding, but one would be hard-pressed to claim that there was some ‘evil’ intent behind the actions. I’ll try to make a list now…Tuskegee Syphilis Study, the MkUltra Project, Gulf of Tonkin incident, … Here’s one you may be familiar with…when the Hunt Brothers tried to corner the silver market in the ‘80s. Shit, the metals market is replete with scandals…does anyone want to buy some Indonesian gold?

 

Anyway, back to your statement. Yes, I agree in the general case. I disagree in particulars.

 

[JayB]

The folks burning the effigy were Anarchists. Again, not sure that will change the analysis, but...

 

 

Care to explain? Are you saying that these kids would be burning books instead, if the trillion dollars were being spent on books instead of bombs? Their message (albeit offensive) is pretty clear: down with the war. But let's go ahead and keep pretending that only radical fringe groups feel this strongly about it.

 

My response here was directed towards the line of thinking contained in this comment: "OTOH, they're doing something to effect the change they want to see. That's cool."

 

One could extend the same logic to Klansmen burning a cross in a public square. While all of us are legally obligated to respect any particular groups rights to use political speech to promote whatever agenda or message they want, there's no such obligation upon anyone to feel as though what the group of protestors is doing is "cool" simply because they are "doing something to effect the change that they want to see."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JayB]

...Conspiracy theories are to history what intelligent design is to evolution.

 

Whew... that took a while to parse.

 

Let’s see if I understand correctly. Intelligent Design implies that a directed consciousness underlies the biotic changes that have occurred since the dawn of life on earth. It is a form of teleology. And that is a sort of metanarrative, so there’s some linearity inherent.

 

In contrast, we take an orthodox view of evolution that says that there is no linearity with respect to design. There is in the sense of contingency in that the eye developed from primitive photoreceptors, not ex nihilo. But, even though plants also respond to light, they will not develop eyes. So, you have to have suitable precursors for it to evolve into something more complex. The ear, for example, it evolved from the modification of the jaw bones.

 

Evolution is not forward-looking; rather it is backward-looking. It does not have an end-design in mind. It cannot even be said to have ‘mind’. Intelligent Design differs in that it postulates that an end-design informs everything.

 

The disbelief in metanarratives characterizes the postmodern view of history. But wait, conspiracy theory implies specifically that a human agency is the director, and often, in that view, a human agency strives to disproportionately acquire power at the expense of the masses, I mean, with respect to a grand conspiracy. I’d have a hard time believing as Philip K. Dick said once, “The Empire never died.”. But in more recent history there is a sense of the formation of political blocs much as in the way outlined by George Orwell, Aldous Huxley, etc. Add technological advances into the mixture and one can imagine the very real possibility of a ‘total control state’. How 'bout some potential paranoia with your morning coffee, eh?

 

I don’t know about anyone else but I tend to lump things such as political machinations, cover-ups, covert operations, etc. into the conspiracy category. There are very real examples of the preceding, but one would be hard-pressed to claim that there was some ‘evil’ intent behind the actions. I’ll try to make a list now…Tuskegee Syphilis Study, the MkUltra Project, Gulf of Tonkin incident, … Here’s one you may be familiar with…when the Hunt Brothers tried to corner the silver market in the ‘80s. Shit, the metals market is replete with scandals…does anyone want to buy some Indonesian gold?

 

Anyway, back to your statement. Yes, I agree in the general case. I disagree in particulars.

 

That's a thoughtful extension to the analogy I was trying to make. I only had the general case in mind.