quick draw question

[ericb]

I'm sure there's a thread somewhere on the web on this but....

 

I've built a bunch of "alpine draws" with mammut dyneema slings (24" tripled) and Trango wiregate biners. I'm more into alpine stuff than sport/trad cragging, and I like them because they are light, and have a lot of utility...extendable, etc. Where extension is not necessary, what are the pros/cons of using these vs. the standard straight-gate biner/bone/bent-gate biner quick draws?

[Cobra_Commander]

I almost find the mammut/trango combo _too_ light sometimes! They can be fiddley compared to a beefy dogbone thing. Also the dyneema doesn't hold up quite as well over time.

[Alpinfox]

Pros: Easy to extend if necessary, floppiness prevents cam walking and nut lifting, lightweight, you'll have that "Yeah, I climb trad" look.

 

Cons: Not as easy to clip as sprot draws. Rope biner often flips upside down while hanging on harness which necessitates the extra time to correct it before clipping rope in. Trango superflies are more likely to have the gate open when rubbing against the rock than most sporto biners because the superflies don't have a nose shroud. This is one of the reasons they are so lightweight, but it makes them a little less safe IMO.

[ericb]

Thanks for the input....so if a person really wanted to throw down some coin, they could spend 11$ per biner and get Shrouded WC Helium biners (3 grams $3-4 more per biner)for the rope end and mitigate that risk at least...

[hawkeye69]

if you are ever way sketched at your limit and want to clip in fast, you will definitely appreciate a few sport draws.

 

they dont have to be the stiffy dogbone variety, although they can be helpful for long reaches to bolts. i like some open loop type short draws, they are flexible and if you use one of those petzl rubber thingies, the bottom biner stays where you want it for when you need it.

 

the big reason i like those is if you are french freeing anything you can stick your hand in the loop to grab on. not a big deal unless you are doin some serious gear pulling.

[ericb]

Cool...I plan on French freeing a bit on Outerspace Saturday. I'm heading back on Saturday to try and shave 30 minutes off my personal best.

[fenderfour]

If you are ever down at Smith, Redpoint usually has a bin of $1 Metolius draws.

[enelson]

quick question a bit off topic if you guys don't mind, i am just not finding the thread i think this should go in. so people are saying they would set up a 2 opposed quick draw top rope anchor on a sport routes to allow other people to top rope up the route. i haven't done this yet so don't worry, but would you use this kind of anchor on a multi pitch sport route? i would want the lockers on my own sling, but i was just curious. sorry for the hijack.

[fern]

2 opposed quickdraw anchor properly rigged probably isn't going to kill you but it is sub-optimal from a clusterfuck perspective.

 

A multipitch anchor with a solid "power point" is going to give you much more flexibility for managing your belay. Cordallettes or double length slings or similar are all good. Clip yourself to the powerpoint directly using the rope and a locker (or opposed non lockers) use your daisy as a backup if you like.

[mattp]

Fern gives a good answer here, but I'll add a different view - though the basic point I'm adding is that "it depends" rather than a disagreement.

 

Depending on how you are managing your climb, the engineering of a "power point" may not be necessary. Given what I think is the premise of your post - you are at a station where there are two bolts installed near each other and probably side-by-side, you can simply clip into one with a knot on your lead rope and "back-up" to the other with a sling or your personal leash connecting your harness to the other. This may save a few 'biners in the process as well as eliminate extra links in the chain between you and the rock.

 

If you have extra climbers, or want to hang a pack, or if the climber who lead the previous pitch is going to lead the next one, or for some other reason I have not thought of but in the interest of promoting the flexibility that Fern notes is desireable, I often put a "master biner" on the bolts at the belay (preferably locking one's, if I have them handy), and then clip to these biner's anything I am attaching there. This allows me to move things around, to leave the belay or do whatever it is I might subsequently want to do without having to unweight or unclip something I don't want to unweight or unclip. You could use a draw in this fashion, but I usually don't want to "waste" a draw for this purpose, and the use of a draw probably only introduces an extra 6" and an extra 'biner into the system.

 

Having said this, though, I handle the belays differently based on a variety of factors and sometimes the cordelette or engineering of a "power point" with slings is a good way to keep things clean.

[enelson]

That all is grand, and i am up on the sling and power point thing, i hav ejust not heard of two opposing draws for toprope so i was wondering if others do that. i feel much more comfortable managing it with some lockers, just a beginner thing i guess. Thanks.

[Mark_Husbands]

sometimes with a two bolt belay I will just do a figure eight on a bight with a large loop, clip this to bolt #1, and then equalize bolt#2 by cloving the tail to it.

[Cobra_Commander]

i hav ejust not heard of two opposing draws for toprope so i was wondering if others do that. i feel much more comfortable managing it with some lockers, just a beginner thing i guess.

 

I'd wager opposed draws is much much more common as a TR anchor than anything else discussed here. There is a pretty solid history of people using these as sport TR anchors w/o incident. A locker or two probably wouldn't hurt though.

 

If something is going to be under tension and not moving all the time it is being used, there is not really a need for a locking biner (ducking).

[catbirdseat]

That all is grand, and i am up on the sling and power point thing, i hav ejust not heard of two opposing draws for toprope so i was wondering if others do that. i feel much more comfortable managing it with some lockers, just a beginner thing i guess. Thanks.

Lockers would be safer if you have them, but not necessary. If you are using opposed non-locking carabiners, you want to make sure they are on slings the lengths of which are adjusted so the biners share the load equally, and you want to make sure they are not against a projection of the rock that could hold a gate open.

[Blake]

yes, Top-roping through two opposed normal quickdraws is safe and standard procedure. changing any or all of the 4 carabiner for lockers would be technically safer, but the chances of that actually preventing an otherwise-accident seem astronomically tiny.

 

Adjust QD or runner lengths to have the load shared as equally as possible.