quote by Jimmy Carter

[chucK]

but the notion that we should promote such actions through no-strings-attached subsidies is retarded. Idiotarians of the World, Unite!

So the creation of another poverty ridden radical islamic state is exactly what the world needs? Exactly who is the idiot here?

 

But what's the alternative? Give money to a government that expressly advocates the destruction of Israel through violent means? Sure, maybe we subsidize a lot of that shit in other parts of the world, but that isn't a good reason in its favor.

 

I definitely don't think we should shut down all dialogue with them, but it doesn't seem that unreasonable to not send them money. Perhaps if there was some way to just give aid to the people and not the government, that'd be cool. That worked just dandy in Iraq though

[selkirk]

both ladies were out of place.

 

Granted.

 

But, out of place, fashion faux paux, and disrespecting your elders are not offences worthy of arrest.

[cj001f]

But what's the alternative? Give money to a government that expressly advocates the destruction of Israel through violent means? Sure, maybe we subsidize a lot of that shit in other parts of the world, but that isn't a good reason in its favor.

 

I definitely don't think we should shut down all dialogue with them, but it doesn't seem that unreasonable to not send them money. Perhaps if there was some way to just give aid to the people and not the government, that'd be cool. That worked just dandy in Iraq though

 

Israel has been a defacto advocate of destruction of the Palestinian state.....

[JayB]

Interesting that Hamas has been elected, Iran has gone hard right, Chile and Argentina have gone more lefty, and other middle east monarchies have back-stepped from more democratic forums since our invasion of Iraq. So just where is freedom on the march?

 

 

 

 

But I agree, that democracy can certainly be a mixed blessing at times.

 

 

 

 

[underworld]

the support the troops lady: wasn't arrested

the "this many dead" lady: charges were dropped

 

both got some spotlight...both got what they wanted. story book ending

[cj001f]

 

Compare and contrast blowhard.

 

 

Oh, that's right, societies usually past the agressively militaristic phase as their wealth increases. What, you say poverty is on the rise in Palestine? They couldn't be connected could they?

[JayB]

So those babies dressed themselves in the suicide gear? Yeah - no difference.

 

The reality is that the Palestinians have brought about their own misery and ruin by means of the infitidah. Instead of sending a message that both their material conditions and their aspirations for statehood will be doomed if they adopt a strategy that does not involve cultivating children whose primary object in life is to serve as explosive delivery devices, the chorus of idiots in the West has encouraged them on this suicidal path to oblivion. Subidizing an unrepentant Hamas would just push them one-step closer to implosion and oblivion.

[cj001f]

So those babies dressed themselves in the suicide gear? Yeah - no difference.

nope, not really

[selkirk]

So those babies dressed themselves in the suicide gear? Yeah - no difference.

 

The reality is that the Palestinians have brought about their own misery and ruin by means of the infitidah. Instead of sending a message that both their material conditions and their aspirations for statehood will be doomed if they adopt a strategy that does not involve cultivating children whose primary object in life is to serve as explosive delivery devices, the chorus of idiots in the West has encouraged them on this suicidal path to oblivion. Subidizing an unrepentant Hamas would just push them one-step closer to implosion and oblivion.

 

Wait a minute. I thought the beginning of the end for the Palestines was when they're country was given away? But i'm sure that had nothing to do with it. They should have simply rolled over and said, here you go, we didn't really need it anyway. Now can you please govern us fairly, and you know maybe in 50 years gives us a tiny chunk, we'd really appreciate that. Just ask the american indians how well diplomacy worked while they were being taken over and funneled onto reservations.

[archenemy]

And here I've always said I didn't want kids...

[selkirk]

But just think how cute he'd look with a miniature working replica of an M-16

[archenemy]

But just think how cute he'd look with a miniature working replica of an M-16

My kid is gonna hump the .50 cal

[JayB]

"Article Eighteen

The women in the house and the family of Jihad fighters, whether they are mothers or sisters, carry out the most important duty of caring for the home and raising the children upon the moral concepts and values which derive from Islam; and of educating their sons to observe the religious injunctions in preparation for the duty of Jihad awaiting them."

 

This is from Hamas's founding charter. http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

 

I am not surprized by the display of shallow pop-relativism on display here, as that seems to be the prevailing ethos of the American Left at the moment. This kind of thinking is also behind the embrace of gems like "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." Actually, you have to examine both the aims and the context in which the violence is occuring. If the violence is directed against a society in which the citizens already enjoy political freedom, and the object of the violence is to establish a totalitarian regime - then this expression is a transparent falsehood. You could just as easily say that "One man's rapist is another man's romantic," or that "One man's axe murderer is another man's surgeon." Great stuff.

 

In the case of the babies in soldier's clothes, the attempt to pretend that this is no different than dressing up your child as a suicide bomber is equally false. Soldiers perform many roles, from maintaining order to delivering humanitarian aid to keeping the peace to mounting invasions, and dressing up a child as such does not indicate the parent's desire to see their child indiscriminately murder as many civilians as possible by means of self-detonation. The same can not be said for those that dress their children as suicide bombers, and send them to schools in which the performance of that duty is presented as the model of the highest good and most noble aspiration.

[underworld]

you said 'mounting invasions'

[archenemy]

"Article Eighteen

The women in the house and the family of Jihad fighters, whether they are mothers or sisters, carry out the most important duty of caring for the home and raising the children upon the moral concepts and values which derive from Islam; and of educating their sons to observe the religious injunctions in preparation for the duty of Jihad awaiting them."

 

This is from Hamas's founding charter. http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

 

 

I am not surprized by the display of shallow pop-relativism on display here, as that seems to be the prevailing ethos of the American Left at the moment. This kind of thinking is also behind the embrace of gems like "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." Actually, you have to examine both the aims and the context in which the violence is occuring. If the violence is directed against a society in which the citizens already enjoy political freedom, and the object of the violence is to establish a totalitarian regime - then this expression is a transparent falsehood. You could just as easily say that "One man's rapist is another man's romantic," or that "One man's axe murderer is another man's surgeon." Great stuff.

 

In the case of the babies in soldier's clothes, the attempt to pretend that this is no different than dressing up your child as a suicide bomber is equally false. Soldiers perform many roles, from maintaining order to delivering humanitarian aid to keeping the peace to mounting invasions, and dressing up a child as such does not indicate the parent's desire to see their child indiscriminately murder as many civilians as possible by means of self-detonation. The same can not be said for those that dress their children as suicide bombers, and send them to schools in which the performance of that duty is presented as the model of the highest good and most noble aspiration.

I don't know about any of that shit, but this "carry out the most important duty of caring for the home and raising the children" is lame.

 

[mattp]

I encourage the members of the Hamas fan-club on this board ...

 

I am not surprized by the display of shallow pop-relativism on display here...

 

What are you talking about there, JayB. Has ANYBODY on this board ever said they supported Hamas? You sound like George "they are for us or aginst us" Bush here.

 

Just because someone thinks that Isreali and US policies have been messed up, or that we think it appears that Hamas was legitimately elected, doesn't mean we're all fans of Hamas.

[willstrickland]

But I agree, that democracy can certainly be a mixed blessing at times.

 

 

Riddle me this, chief: This "child-of-hamas" (I didn't name the file, btw) seems to be posing with a US manufactured M-16, and wearing clothes with english language writing. Exactly where is this "child-of-hamas" living, Idaho?

 

Because the US would never, ever sell arms to or negotiate with terrorist and rogue outfits.

 

Cough IRANCONTRA Cough cough. Please enlighten me o Jay, oracle of wingnuttitude.

[JayB]

So those babies dressed themselves in the suicide gear? Yeah - no difference.

 

The reality is that the Palestinians have brought about their own misery and ruin by means of the infitidah. Instead of sending a message that both their material conditions and their aspirations for statehood will be doomed if they adopt a strategy that does not involve cultivating children whose primary object in life is to serve as explosive delivery devices, the chorus of idiots in the West has encouraged them on this suicidal path to oblivion. Subidizing an unrepentant Hamas would just push them one-step closer to implosion and oblivion.

 

Wait a minute. I thought the beginning of the end for the Palestines was when they're country was given away? But i'm sure that had nothing to do with it. They should have simply rolled over and said, here you go, we didn't really need it anyway. Now can you please govern us fairly, and you know maybe in 50 years gives us a tiny chunk, we'd really appreciate that. Just ask the american indians how well diplomacy worked while they were being taken over and funneled onto reservations.

 

Yeah - because unceasing millitary conflict against an opponent with a staggering millitary superiority, that was increasing with every passing year, would have definitely worked for them in the end.

 

In the case of the Palestinians, do a bit of digging and take a look at every measure of prosperity and well-being that you can find on the Palestinians pre-and post-Intifada. I don't think their decline since the onset of the Intifada is a coincidence, but I'll leave you to make your own judgement.

[JayB]

But I agree, that democracy can certainly be a mixed blessing at times.

 

 

Riddle me this, chief: This "child-of-hamas" (I didn't name the file, btw) seems to be posing with a US manufactured M-16, and wearing clothes with english language writing. Exactly where is this "child-of-hamas" living, Idaho?

 

Because the US would never, ever sell arms to or negotiate with terrorist and rogue outfits.

 

Cough IRANCONTRA Cough cough. Please enlighten me o Jay, oracle of wingnuttitude.

 

Yeah - I made the whole thing up. Totally out of synch with the Hamas charter, speeches, and let's not even talk about all of those fake suicide bombings that they keep trying to get us to believe are actually happening over there.

 

I actually found him living on the Google image database when I plugged in "Hamas." I imagine that given the fake-proclivity of the fake-Hamas supporters to dress their fake-children in fake-suicide costumes and display them on the streets at fake-rallies, I'm sure you'll have a hard time scaring up others.

[willstrickland]

Will we ever fire Condi the Incompetent?

 

"I don't think anyone expected a hamas victory"

 

Oh really? Even after Mahmoud Abbas pleaded with Rice to postpone the elections because it looked like hamas was going to rout Fatah. But she had no idea. Just like she had no idea some nuts would use a plane as a weapon, after being warned of just such a possibility.

 

Accountability? No, just promote them. Competence? Who needs it, remeber government is the problem, not the solution (and BushCo is determined to prove it!).

[JayB]

I encourage the members of the Hamas fan-club on this board ...

 

I am not surprized by the display of shallow pop-relativism on display here...

 

What are you talking about there, JayB. Has ANYBODY on this board ever said they supported Hamas? You sound like George "they are for us or aginst us" Bush here.

 

Just because someone thinks that Isreali and US policies have been messed up, or that we think it appears that Hamas was legitimately elected, doesn't mean we're all fans of Hamas.

 

There's no argument about the legitimacy of the election, the dispute was centered upon the notion that refusing to subsidize Hamas was an effort to overthrow their government. No one in government has said any such thing. What they have said, is that they will not continue to subsidize them unless they reform, which seems entirely reasonable to me.

[willstrickland]

Nice strawman, Jay.

 

Now again, where did this "child-of-hamas" acquire his US made rifle and clothing?

[JayB]

Will we ever fire Condi the Incompetent?

 

"I don't think anyone expected a hamas victory"

 

Oh really? Even after Mahmoud Abbas pleaded with Rice to postpone the elections because it looked like hamas was going to rout Fatah. But she had no idea. Just like she had no idea some nuts would use a plane as a weapon, after being warned of just such a possibility.

 

Accountability? No, just promote them. Competence? Who needs it, remeber government is the problem, not the solution (and BushCo is determined to prove it!).

 

Wait - what's the matter with Hamas?

[selkirk]

So those babies dressed themselves in the suicide gear? Yeah - no difference.

 

The reality is that the Palestinians have brought about their own misery and ruin by means of the infitidah. Instead of sending a message that both their material conditions and their aspirations for statehood will be doomed if they adopt a strategy that does not involve cultivating children whose primary object in life is to serve as explosive delivery devices, the chorus of idiots in the West has encouraged them on this suicidal path to oblivion. Subidizing an unrepentant Hamas would just push them one-step closer to implosion and oblivion.

 

Wait a minute. I thought the beginning of the end for the Palestines was when they're country was given away? But i'm sure that had nothing to do with it. They should have simply rolled over and said, here you go, we didn't really need it anyway. Now can you please govern us fairly, and you know maybe in 50 years gives us a tiny chunk, we'd really appreciate that. Just ask the american indians how well diplomacy worked while they were being taken over and funneled onto reservations.

 

Yeah - because unceasing millitary conflict against an opponent with a staggering millitary superiority, that was increasing with every passing year, would have definitely worked for them in the end.

 

In the case of the Palestinians, do a bit of digging and take a look at every measure of prosperity and well-being that you can find on the Palestinians pre-and post-Intifada. I don't think their decline since the onset of the Intifada is a coincidence, but I'll leave you to make your own judgement.

 

were getting into a chicken egg problem. If they're country hadn't been summarily given away there would be no need for the intifada. And with a goal of gaining and independant country, I somehow doubt political pressure would have been effective. The intifada may have caused a significant decrease in their standards of living, but they are (or at least were) moving in the direction of forming an independant state once again. Without the threat of violece they have absolutely no leverage over Israel.

 

I don't really condone violence in any form except as an absolute last resort solution to an untennable solution. Though from their perspective. Once you've been invaded, that could easily seem untennable and last resort.

[JayB]

Nice strawman, Jay.

 

Now again, where did this "child-of-hamas" acquire his US made rifle and clothing?

 

Probably at the shop down the corner. Supply follows demand. I imagine that the photo was probably taken with a *Japanese* camera, so the thousands of similar images on the web are most likely the result of a grand Japanese conspiracy to make Hamas look bad.