foraker Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 I got yer church right here baby: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Ok, here's the one that gets me. 'Celibate' Catholic priests who provide marriage counseling. Isn't something really wrong with that picture? Â In my current job, I am proposing changes to a huge organizational hierarchy tool. I have never built one. But I can provide excellent consulting on the project based on what I have learned about other processes like this one, other processes I have built, and the specific needs of this process. Â And don't you know, marriage has very little to do with sex anyway. Â HAHAHAHAHA. An "organizational tool" is nothing like a marriage. Your analogy is bunk. I'm not married and I can tell you that much. The marriage counseling by people not involved, ever involved, or trained in the art is laughable at best. If churchs they want to do some good they would help people see that it is probably "god's intent" that they seek help through their fellow humans rather than think he'll just fix shit by showing up at church, praying, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foraker Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 If there's one thing I'm willfully ignorant of in this life, it's organized religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehead Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 In my current job, I am proposing changes to a huge organizational hierarchy tool. I have never built one. But I can provide excellent consulting on the project based on what I have learned about other processes like this one, other processes I have built, and the specific needs of this process. Â And don't you know, marriage has very little to do with sex anyway. Â I generally agree with ya on that. Being unmarriaged doesn't disqualify a person from having an opinion on how things should be but I wonder how informed that opinion can be. I think that marriage counseling would be, to some degree, experiential. I mean, wouldn't you be able to communicate better with your clients if you had shared similar experiences? Â Sex. Hmmm....big part of a successful marriage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 28, 2005 Author Share Posted September 28, 2005 And don't you know, marriage has very little to do with sex anyway. Â You might need some help from Minx? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foraker Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 I might very well say that religion has very little to do with being a good little chuch sheeple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Ok, here's the one that gets me. 'Celibate' Catholic priests who provide marriage counseling. Isn't something really wrong with that picture? Â In my current job, I am proposing changes to a huge organizational hierarchy tool. I have never built one. But I can provide excellent consulting on the project based on what I have learned about other processes like this one, other processes I have built, and the specific needs of this process. Â And don't you know, marriage has very little to do with sex anyway. Â HAHAHAHAHA. An "organizational tool" is nothing like a marriage. Your analogy is bunk. I'm not married and I can tell you that much. The marriage counseling by people not involved, ever involved, or trained in the art is laughable at best. If churchs they want to do some good they would help people see that it is probably "god's intent" that they seek help through their fellow humans rather than think he'll just fix shit by showing up at church, praying, etc. Â Youngster, the analogy is not about marriage/organizational tool; it is about priest/consultant. Take a logic & debate class before you try to sound like you know how to debunk an analogy. Â A Priest who provides marriage counselling is trained in exactly that--marriage counselling. Other counsellors, like a Psychiatrist, does not need to be insane to know how to counsel/treat someone who is. Â And the church does encourage people to seek help from other people. What do you think Priests are, robots? Furthermore, I am unaware of a Catholic Church that dissuades its members from supporting and helping each other out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 And don't you know, marriage has very little to do with sex anyway. Â You might need some help from Minx? Â Â hmmm...how did i get involved in this. Â a)i'm not sure i want to know about anyone else's sex life b) marriage has very little to do w/sex wtf? c) i am DEFINITELY not qualified to be a priest/marriage counselor. Â you kids go have fun debating these large philosophical issues like religion and marriage. i'm going to go over here to my corner, do some work, read some spray, be atheist and not think too hard today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 In my current job, I am proposing changes to a huge organizational hierarchy tool. I have never built one. But I can provide excellent consulting on the project based on what I have learned about other processes like this one, other processes I have built, and the specific needs of this process. Â And don't you know, marriage has very little to do with sex anyway. Â I generally agree with ya on that. Being unmarriaged doesn't disqualify a person from having an opinion on how things should be but I wonder how informed that opinion can be.I agree that it is easier to communicate with someone on an equal basis if you have shared their experience. However, if you are in the position to counsel someone, you need not have shared that persons experience--your value comes in having studied many other people's experiences and being able to share a "best practices" collection (among other things--but that's the first example that came to mind). I think that marriage counseling would be, to some degree, experiential. So then the more times a person has been married, the better cousel that person can give? I mean, wouldn't you be able to communicate better with your clients if you had shared similar experiences? Again, communication is a broad term. Giving counsel is a bit more specific (but still encompases a lot). I don't need to have personal experience with what I am working on. I collect other people's experiences (phone calls taken in the complaint dept and the issue resolutions) and get a picture of what needs to be changed. In order to propose changes and see how they will be accepted, I conduct usability tests. Again, I need not have direct experience with the program. Â Sex. Hmmm....big part of a successful marriage. It was a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knelson Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Damn... can't believe I'm gonna stick up for Catholic priests... Â The marriage counseling by people not involved, ever involved, or trained in the art is laughable at best. Â Can't vouch for all of 'em, but most clergy ARE trained in the art of relationships... even if they're not having one themselves. Relationships don't have to involve marriage, or sex for that matter. Â If churchs they want to do some good they would help people see that it is probably "god's intent" that they seek help through their fellow humans rather than think he'll just fix shit by showing up at church, praying, etc. Â Uhh... guess you're not a church goer, eh? Most churches WILL suggest outside help, in addition to the obvious "church stuff." Christianity is not a passive religion, as others have suggested in this thread - it's a two-way street. Â -kurt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 I might very well say that religion has very little to do with being a good little chuch sheeple. Â You could say this, but it would be bullshit because you are willfully ignorant of organized religion and therefore know nothing of the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 28, 2005 Author Share Posted September 28, 2005 And don't you know, marriage has very little to do with sex anyway. Â You might need some help from Minx? Â Â hmmm...how did i get involved in this. Â a)i'm not sure i want to know about anyone else's sex life b) marriage has very little to do w/sex wtf? c) i am DEFINITELY not qualified to be a priest/marriage counselor. Â you kids go have fun debating these large philosophical issues like religion and marriage. i'm going to go over here to my corner, do some work, read some spray, be atheist and not think too hard today. Â I'm thinking that sex will have more to do with marriage after some of that bunny juice you brew up is given to the married couple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 i don't know how you people can think about this stuff when it's this nice out and i've just received some interesting spam regarding the benefits of viagra. isn't that way more important than religion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foraker Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 You could say preists can give advice on marriage too but it would be bullshit because they know nothing about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 28, 2005 Author Share Posted September 28, 2005 It's not nice out here. Big storm coming in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 You could say preists can give advice on marriage too but it would be bullshit because they know nothing about it. Have you not actually read the thread you are posting to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foraker Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 probably not, i'm trying to get some work done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 "bunny juice" Â Â that's the funniest thing i've seen all day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Yes, I got your fucking point, thanks. Â No, Arch, a priest doesn't nescessarily have any formal training. Any training they do have, furthermore, is slanted towards their church's views and not nescessarily what approach might be best for the couple. Your example of a shrink not having to be insane is, again, bunk. Shrinks go through years of formal training, learning these interesting concepts called "science." It's true that a good portion of their work is not nescessarily science but if they are good at their jobs they should have a wide range of techniques and be able to use different approaches with different patients. I don't think is true of somebody like a priest. I agree that a priest may certainly be of some help, but I don't think they are qualified as an expert on the issue in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 That narrative has been around for thousands of years. How much longer do you think it needs to be studied, interpreted, and taught to qualify in your opinion as "well thought out"? Considering how much it's changed, the thinkings obviously not done, is it? Hence my question about Liberation Theology, a doctrine of social justice that a majority of 1st world catholics don't subscribe to but is popular in S. America. The church presents its narrative as immutable, and most practitioners assume it to be so, a quick look at history will show it isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Yes, I got your fucking point, thanks. No, Arch, a priest doesn't nescessarily have any formal training. Any training they do have, furthermore, is slanted towards their church's views and not nescessarily what approach might be best for the couple. Your example of a shrink not having to be insane is, again, bunk. Shrinks go through years of formal training, learning these interesting concepts called "science." It's true that a good portion of their work is not nescessarily science but if they are good at their jobs they should have a wide range of techniques and be able to use different approaches with different patients. I don't think is true of somebody like a priest. I agree that a priest may certainly be of some help, but I don't think they are qualified as an expert on the issue in any way.  What do you think seminary school is? Do you have any idea of what is required to become a Catholic Priest? And if course the Priest will counsel within the views of the church--that is why the couple is there. They are members of the church seeking to get married within the laws of that church. And again, a Priest need not be an expert on the issue of marriage (is anyone, really? Isn't each relationship unique?). The Priest, however, is the expert on counselling the people who come to them for guidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 That narrative has been around for thousands of years. How much longer do you think it needs to be studied, interpreted, and taught to qualify in your opinion as "well thought out"? Considering how much it's changed, the thinkings obviously not done, is it? Hence my question about Liberation Theology, a doctrine of social justice that a majority of 1st world catholics don't subscribe to but is popular in S. America. The church presents its narrative as immutable, and most practitioners assume it to be so, a quick look at history will show it isn't. I will be right back.. have a meeting for about an hour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Do you have any idea of what is required to become a Catholic Priest? A predilection for pedophilia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knelson Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 No, Arch, a priest doesn't nescessarily have any formal training. Â I think you're confusing "Priests" or ordained ministers from other denominational relgions with the "send in a coupon from a matchbook and become a minister" variety that seems to be predominate in a lot of fundamentalist non-denominational churches. Â The path to being an ordained minister is up there close to being a doctor. Not sure what that says about either career path... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selkirk Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Uhh... guess you're not a church goer, eh? Most churches WILL suggest outside help, in addition to the obvious "church stuff." Christianity At it's best is not a passive religion, as others have suggested in this thread - it's a two-way street.  -kurt  Most religions are this way. A lot of people seem awfully lazy though, and are happy to let other people think for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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