One Nation under God

[selkirk]

No, Arch, a priest doesn't nescessarily have any formal training.

 

I think you're confusing "Priests" or ordained ministers from other denominational relgions with the "send in a coupon from a matchbook and become a minister" variety that seems to be predominate in a lot of fundamentalist non-denominational churches.

 

The path to being an ordained minister is up there close to being a doctor. Not sure what that says about either career path...

 

Big difference between a minister and a catholic priest. There are lots of people preaching with nothing but charisma and few bible versus. Though there are also some extremely thoughtful well educated ones as well. Likey anything else there's a spectrum.

 

As for catholic priests, I just googled it and came up with this

"Preparation generally requires 8 years of study beyond high school, usually including a college degree followed by 4 or more years of theology study at a seminary."

 

Nope, these guys aren't trained in anything what so ever. (This is the same amount of schooling it takes to get an MD, or for some a PhD. Though the MD's still have a residency to go through once they graduate.)

[cj001f]

Nope, these guys aren't trained in anything what so ever. (This is the same amount of schooling it takes to get an MD, or for some a PhD. Though the MD's still have a residency to go through once they graduate.)

 

Going to school for years doesn't inherently make you an expert on anything but going to school. And since priests study theology, I don't think anyone would expect them to inherently know things other than theology ( The study of the nature of God and religious truth)

[Stonehead]

I generally agree with ya on that. Being unmarriaged doesn't disqualify a person from having an opinion on how things should be but I wonder how informed that opinion can be.I agree that it is easier to communicate with someone on an equal basis if you have shared their experience. However, if you are in the position to counsel someone, you need not have shared that persons experience--your value comes in having studied many other people's experiences and being able to share a "best practices" collection (among other things--but that's the first example that came to mind).

I think that marriage counseling would be, to some degree, experiential. So then the more times a person has been married, the better cousel that person can give? I mean, wouldn't you be able to communicate better with your clients if you had shared similar experiences?

Again, communication is a broad term. Giving counsel is a bit more specific (but still encompases a lot). I don't need to have personal experience with what I am working on. I collect other people's experiences (phone calls taken in the complaint dept and the issue resolutions) and get a picture of what needs to be changed. In order to propose changes and see how they will be accepted, I conduct usability tests. Again, I need not have direct experience with the program.

 

Hmm, this is funny but I find myself agreeing with ya on your points. The only holdback I have is that it seems a sense of mutual trust must be engendered to allow one to talk intimately about relationship issues. Aren't I more likely to discuss these issues if I sense you understand where I'm coming from? I certainly feel more confident in another person's ability if I know that person has been through a particular or similar experience.

 

Maybe I'm thinking too much along the lines of the 'wounded healer' bs. But wouldn't that person have more empathy for my plight? Maybe a specific answer isn't needed but rather a sense of 'communion'.

 

I would think that the approach is valid but the results vary among individual practitioners.

[knelson]

No, Arch, a priest doesn't nescessarily have any formal training.

 

I think you're confusing "Priests" or ordained ministers from other denominational relgions with the "send in a coupon from a matchbook and become a minister" variety that seems to be predominate in a lot of fundamentalist non-denominational churches.

 

The path to being an ordained minister is up there close to being a doctor. Not sure what that says about either career path...

 

Big difference between a minister and a catholic priest. There are lots of people preaching with nothing but charisma and few bible versus. Though there are also some extremely thoughtful well educated ones as well. Likey anything else there's a spectrum.

 

As for catholic priests, I just googled it and came up with this

"Preparation generally requires 8 years of study beyond high school, usually including a college degree followed by 4 or more years of theology study at a seminary."

 

Nope, these guys aren't trained in anything what so ever. (This is the same amount of schooling it takes to get an MD, or for some a PhD. Though the MD's still have a residency to go through once they graduate.)

 

Uhhhh... right. Yeah. I think that's pretty much what I said.

 

As also noted, schoolin' don't make ya edumacated.

 

But check into what they're teaching at those seminaries and I'm pretty sure you won't find 4,003 courses on how to read Hebrew. Course work also involves counseling. And like MDs, there are also internships, etc. equivalent to residencies.

 

Point is, contrary to Josh's point, most of these folks that are in it for the right reason ARE highly trained. Whether or not they're competant is another issue.

 

edit: can't believe I spelled "competant" wrong!

Edited September 28, 2005 by knelson

[selkirk]

Would you like me to dig up some sample curricula? They're trained for the jobs they intend to do, which are incredibly various. Remember they have to have an accredited undergrad degree in something before they enter seminary. I'd be willing to bet their graduate studies entail a great deal more than only theology though.

 

Your right, going to school doesn't necessarily make you an expert on anything. But it certainly makes you more knowledgeable, and in a shorter time about the things you study than a layman. It still needs to be tempered with time spent practicing your art though. Just like Dr's, Lawyers, teacher, engineers..... Should I keep going?

[Stonehead]

Glory for the Godless

Life in God's country may not be paradise on Earth, if a study published in the Journal of Religion and Society is to be believed. Religious practices don't necessarily enhance a society's moral and ethical fiber, according to the study, and in fact may prove deleterious. "In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies," said Gregory Paul, the study's author. Looking at social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy, Paul concluded that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. And the worst offender? "The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so," said Paul.

 

----from Wired

 

This article seems misleading in its generalization of religion's effect on society. I think the study would better serve if more factors were taken into account, e.g. population age structure, one income vs. two income earner families, level of education, etc. and then look at the correlations to see if any light is shed on potential causation.

[knelson]

Would you like me to dig up some sample curricula? They're trained for the jobs they intend to do, which are incredibly various. Remember they have to have an accredited undergrad degree in something before they enter seminary. I'd be willing to bet their graduate studies entail a great deal more than only theology though.

...

 

Selkirk,

 

Still confused... seems like you're arguing with me, but we're saying the same thing.

 

There are many different areas of study available at seminaries, so giving you a specific course outline is a bit pointless, but here are a couple links you can knock yourself out with...

 

http://info.wlu.ca/~wwwsem/syllabus/listen_with_heart.html

 

http://www.trinitylutheranseminary.edu/Academics/CourseCatalog.pdf

 

Obviously, if someone is truly interested in a counseling avenue, their 4-year degree coursework (before seminary) is probably going to be heavy in that area... just as you commented. If their interest is in music & worship, then they're probably going to have an emphasis on arts, etc.

 

Again... we're saying the same thing: most of these folks aren't "untrained."

[cj001f]

I'd be willing to bet their graduate studies entail a great deal more than only theology though

http://www.byzcathsem.org/seminary/degree.php#master

http://benedictine.stvincent.edu/seminary/programs/Mdivprogram.html

 

Note requirements heavy in theology and philosophy. I have a relative who was an ordained Lutheran minister

[iain]

[Ireneo_Funes]

Most people I know who go to church or otherwise participate in an religious community don't seem to think about a priest's or pastor's qualifications in these kind of terms (years of schooling, certificates, whatever). I think a person who trusts someone enough to seek counseling is basing that trust on something less tangible than a diploma. And I don't think that's a bad thing at all.

[cj001f]

I think a person who trusts someone enough to seek counseling is basing that trust on something less tangible than a diploma. And I don't think that's a bad thing at all.

In light of how many peoples trust was violated by priests (and the Church) perhaps that's not a good thing.

[Ireneo_Funes]

I didn't say people shouldn't think for themselves.

 

I just meant that building a relationship with a spiritual mentor doesn't necessarily mean shopping around for the priest with the best cirriculum vitae.

[archenemy]

That narrative has been around for thousands of years. How much longer do you think it needs to be studied, interpreted, and taught to qualify in your opinion as "well thought out"?

Considering how much it's changed, the thinkings obviously not done, is it? Hence my question about Liberation Theology, a doctrine of social justice that a majority of 1st world catholics don't subscribe to but is popular in S. America. The church presents its narrative as immutable, and most practitioners assume it to be so, a quick look at history will show it isn't.

I will be right back.. have a meeting for about an hour.

 

So, I don't know anything about L.T.--I have never heard the phrase before now.

When you say that a doctrine is presented as immutable, I think of groups like orthodox folks who study the Torah or the Koran and believe that those words are the actual words of God. Most Christians, as far as I understand, believe that the Bible is not the direct word of God--that it was written by men who were inspired by God. This is what has allowed (after much contention) the numerous translations and versions of the Bible. This necessarily opens avenues for discussion.

Furthermore, there are numerous clear, direct examples of the Bible saying one thing, and then saying the opposite thing somewhere else (i.e. Knowledge is good, Knowledge is bad). Some folks believe this is so in order to allow different interpretations of the narrative.

Many Jewish studies (non-orth) also add to the Old Testament (not the Pentatuch part of course) and are used as a basis of discussion.

My point is, there is a lot of wiggle room in the Bible, people know it, and folks often use it as an entry to discussion. All of this is different from the concept of an Ideology--which is far less flexible.

[archenemy]

Nope, these guys aren't trained in anything what so ever. (This is the same amount of schooling it takes to get an MD, or for some a PhD. Though the MD's still have a residency to go through once they graduate.)

 

Going to school for years doesn't inherently make you an expert on anything but going to school. And since priests study theology, I don't think anyone would expect them to inherently know things other than theology ( The study of the nature of God and religious truth)

We don't need to debate these statements because they cancel each other out. If you seriously believe the first statement, then the second statement cannot be true. But then, that's just something I learned in a logic class while going to school. Oh, but wait, logic wasn't my area of study. How could it be that I learned other stuff besides just what directly relates to my area of study? Oh yeah, because that is how a formal higher education is structured--even one in theology (take a look at the classes required for a degree in theology at Seattle University (a Jesuit school) if you prefer to not just take my word on this).

 

But if I step back from all that and agree to follow the logic of your first statement, then it would follow that by going to work, the only thing I learn is how to go to work. I would never become an expert in what I work on every day of the week. So basically, none of us ever become experts at anything. Unless it is inherent to us--right?

[cj001f]

But if I step back from all that and agree to follow the logic of your first statement, then it would follow that by going to work, the only thing I learn is how to go to work. I would never become an expert in what I work on every day of the week. So basically, none of us ever become experts at anything. Unless it is inherent to us--right?

Your logic is faulty.

[selkirk]

Would you like me to dig up some sample curricula? They're trained for the jobs they intend to do, which are incredibly various. Remember they have to have an accredited undergrad degree in something before they enter seminary. I'd be willing to bet their graduate studies entail a great deal more than only theology though.

...

 

Selkirk,

 

Still confused... seems like you're arguing with me, but we're saying the same thing.

 

There are many different areas of study available at seminaries, so giving you a specific course outline is a bit pointless, but here are a couple links you can knock yourself out with...

 

http://info.wlu.ca/~wwwsem/syllabus/listen_with_heart.html

 

http://www.trinitylutheranseminary.edu/Academics/CourseCatalog.pdf

 

Obviously, if someone is truly interested in a counseling avenue, their 4-year degree coursework (before seminary) is probably going to be heavy in that area... just as you commented. If their interest is in music & worship, then they're probably going to have an emphasis on arts, etc.

 

Again... we're saying the same thing: most of these folks aren't "untrained."

 

I love spray, so freakin confusing. Not actually arguing with you knelson! Trying to enligthen foraker, JoshK, and Cj001f and the rest of the heathens

 

On a different note it seems most religions in their best forms are open to some interpretation. That's what makes them capable of being more broadly applicable, than to only the time they were created in. Their may be immutable fundamental principles but they have to be able to breath and live a bit. Really not that different than the constitution or any good government. I think to say that the Bible (or any religious text) is immutable and must be read literally is BS. Far too many contradictions to be rectified. (I.E. Old testament stoning vs new testament, let he who has not sinned...) Of course a lot of people still seem to want to interpret it literally in each and every case so we get things like intelligent design, the occasional jihad, all kinds of good stuff.

 

As far as the whole education vs expertise, priests as pedophiles etc.... all those arguments are red-herrings and straw-men anyway

[archenemy]

I agree with you Selkirk.

 

What I think is funny is that a person could even think they can read something without interpreting it. How is that possible? Even if someone else tells you what the text means, you still have to interpret what that person is saying. It is impossible to take anything in without using your powers of perception, interpretation, meaning-making, et al.

[cj001f]

awww, how touchy feely new age american you two are. Religion gets to be what I want it to be...

[selkirk]

awww, how touchy feely new age american you two are. Religion gets to be what I want it to be...

 

So long as what you want it to be is what I tell you it is

[Stonehead]

I agree with you Selkirk.

 

What I think is funny is that a person could even think they can read something without interpreting it. How is that possible? Even if someone else tells you what the text means, you still have to interpret what that person is saying. It is impossible to take anything in without using your powers of perception, interpretation, meaning-making, et al.

 

Subjectivity... I think that's why a church develops an institutional doctrine, to maintain an objective stance apart from personal interpretations.

 

Seems the consulting is more an art than a science. But, I could be wrong. How much degree of freedom does a priest have with regard to marriage consulting, I mean he can't deviate from doctrine.

[selkirk]

I agree with you Selkirk.

 

What I think is funny is that a person could even think they can read something without interpreting it. How is that possible? Even if someone else tells you what the text means, you still have to interpret what that person is saying. It is impossible to take anything in without using your powers of perception, interpretation, meaning-making, et al.

 

Subjectivity... I think that's why a church develops an institutional doctrine, to maintain an objective stance apart from personal interpretations.

 

Seems the consulting is more an art than a science. But, I could be wrong. How much degree of freedom does a priest have with regard to marriage consulting, I mean he can't deviate from doctrine.

 

well, not officially, anyway. Had to do a required marriage counseling thing prior to getting married in a catholic church a few years ago (an awfully good requirement in my opinion), and while the priest himself usually toed the party line, he made it clear, that more important than following the party line it was important for each couple to to find a path that they could agree on, to understand the actions they were taking and why. Keeping the couple stable , happy, and connected was of a higher priority than oh say, the church's stance on contraception. So he made it clear that there were other options, some of which were discussed by the people other than the priest who were helping facilitate the thing.

 

I know, I know, seems like a goofy thing to do. Marriage counseling before your married. And well, if you already talk and communicate well with your fiance you don't learn that much, but that's not the case for everyone. Of the three or four of these things i've heard of, everyone ended up with at least a 1 or 2 couple postponing their weddings because they realized they really didn't know as much aboutt their fiance as they should have, and really didn't have everything figured out yet.

 

On a different note, the whole thing was organized and run by the church, overseen by the priest, but a lot of the discussions were run by two married couples (1 at 5 years, 1 at 15), so they had some people on hand who had experience with the whole stable marriage thing, and weren't only relying on the priest who had never been married. Speaking of which there is actually a growing movement to allow priests to marry. Will be interesting to see where that goes.

[Stonehead]

Yeah, totally agree with what you're saying. Seems though that a lot of the stuff is common sense, the part about communicating common goals for a relationship, for instance. Agree that pre-martial counseling is a good thing for young couples; older couples have more figured out. Think the thing is called marriage covenant, ie, an agreement to stick it through but with intentions and goals stated expressly.

[selkirk]

It's just amazing how rare common sense seems to be though.

[cj001f]

It's just amazing how rare common sense seems to be though.

"Common" sense is as mutable as anything else.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Ok, here's the one that gets me. 'Celibate' Catholic priests who provide marriage counseling. Isn't something really wrong with that picture?

 

Many counselors counsel those who suffer from problems that they have never experienced. Must a psychiatrist have suffered from schziophrenia in order to counsel a schizophrenic?