Dustin_B Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Any one have a sleeping bag with Pertex Quantum as the shell fabric? (Marmot Helium or Hydrogen, Western Mountaineering Extremelite series, FF, etc). I’m interested in how water resistant the fabric is from a tent-condensation perspective, and not so much a sleeping-in-the-rain situation. (I’m assuming its not so good when getting rained on). I have a Moutainsmith Wisp bag which uses a similar but lighter shell material (Dimension Polyant Airnet fabric, .85oz high tenacity nylon) and I’ve noticed that when there is lots of condensation on the tent walls and I rub against them, the shell of the bag can wet out. Its never been a problem of the down getting wet though (yet). I’m looking to get a bag with a Pertex Quantum shell. Any problems with durability of the fabric? (I’ve had none with my lighter shell bag). Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RideT61 Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Dustin, I work in the textile industry and can tell you that Pertex Edurance is around 4x more water resistant (around 450mm of H20 compared to 2200mm H20). Pertex Quantum is also sognificantly less abrasion resistant. It is however more breathable and about half the weight. As with everything, it is a trade off, pick your poison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordop Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Scotchguard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RideT61 Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Scothguard is a nice thought but the Endurance is still much better because it has a tighter weave. Scothguard will help the fabric from wetting out (which it is already really good at) but if there is enough pressure (>450mm of H20) or so, the water will still penetrate the fabric no matter how good the DWR. Rolling over in you bag on some condensation or melted snow on the floor provides more than enough pressure to do that. Without spending too much time to explain this, ther is a difference betting water repellency (beading up) and water resistance (ability to prevent water from passing through the fabric. Hopefully designers in the outdoor industry will figure it out someday, but I don't have much faith in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undermind Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 I have the REI Kilo Plus bag with Pertex. (I guess just regular Pertex, does not specify Quantum) But there is so much more to a damp sleeping bag shell than just shell material. You can have the most waterproof shell in the world and still have a wet bag due to body vapor or exhalation. I'm trying to find the perfect solution to having a dry bag every morning. Here's a thread on this exact topic: http://forums.backpacker.com/thread.jspa?threadID=61303&tstart=15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snodger Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Hey Ride, Since you seem to have some inside knowledge, perhaps you can help with some more info. I'd love to see a comparison of the various WB fabrics out there. Some quantifiable numbers of water resistance versus breathabilty would allow you to compare actual experience with lab results and perhaps make better decisions about whats bullshit marketing and whats real. So have you ever seen a source like that or do you have to get tech reports from each vendor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RideT61 Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Snodger, Good question. The debate surrounding which WPB fabric is the most breathable is a very difficult one. The problem stems from the fact that there are several different test methods for measuring how breathable a fabric is. Unfortunately, the results from the various test methods are not comparable. As a result, companies that make fabrics use either the test method that makes their fabric look the best, or the one Goretex uses (because Goretex is the 800lb gorilla in the industry and everyone is compared to them). Unfortunately many of these test methods do not correlate well with use in the real word. The people I work with and I have come to the conclusion that the two test methods that correspond best to use in the field (we are all climbers and have suffered quite a bit to figure this out) are the "ASTM-E96-upright cup method" and "NATIC DMPV" with the DMPV test being the best. Unfortunately nobody uses these tests because of the wonderful world of marketing and other forces within the industry (Goretex). Ican tell you that of everything we have tested Event does better than just about anything on the market both in the lab and in the field. (Note:I do not work for Event) Hopefully this helps a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snodger Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Thanks for the input, I figured the companies wouldn't want to make it easy to figure out which one is "the best" as it might impact thier sales. I've been pondering this issue as I consider replacing my mid 80's synthetic bag with a nice fluffy down bag. Seems like it's a delicate balance between keeping liquid out and letting out the vapor. The debate raging around inside my overly analytical mind are like this: A feather friends bag w/epic sounds like its highly breathable, and durable, but is its water resistance enough to keep the down dry over multiple nights of frost? No questions here with quality or service. The exped "welded" bags with pertex endurance are interesting. This option is a bit worrysome as I don't know much about the company or its products. They advertise them as waterproof but I wouldn't necessarily want to drop that much $ on new technology. Well actually its not that new is it? Mountain Hardware had some welded bags a few years back- anyone know anything about them? And whats the skinny on the endurance fabric, is it a membrane, dwr coating, or what? Any then lately I've been thinking about getting a lightweight bag cover made of epic or event. This could relace the emergency space blanket bag I carry and double as a winter bag cover as needed. Probably cheaper to buy a REI bag and a cover than to buy a top line down bag with wpb fabric. Buying at REI would mean I could always return it if I wasn't happy with the performance. So can you believe the marketing when they say "waterproof"? Is it up to each company to decide what constitutes waterproofness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbconlin Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 I recently purchased a FF bag and had a lengthy e-mail discussion with their customer service before I chose my shell fabric. He seemed to indicate that: eVent is the most breathable wpb fabric out there and is more waterproof than epic. downside is its heavier (pack weight but also affects lofting of down) and expensive. it is apparently 4x more breathable than Gore Dryloft. Epic is comparable in breathability to most other wpbs/dwrs (dryloft, endurance, conduit sl, etc) endurance is a dwr, I believe. a couple of friends of mine spent the night in a snow cave recently with 1.) mtn harwear conduit sl and 2.) marmot lithium (pertex quantum). Both stayed dry all night, if that is any indication. I chose FF w/ epic. It seems to offer a nice balance of water-resistance, breathability, light weight, and high lofting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbconlin Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 p.s. if it is any indication, epic is FF's most popular shell fabric. They have been using it for years and have had few complaints. If they are using it so frequently, it must be good, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin_B Posted May 3, 2005 Author Share Posted May 3, 2005 (edited) Epic is comparable in breathability to most other wpbs/dwrs (dryloft, endurance, conduit sl, etc) Really? did the person you were corresponding with at FF say that? I'm not familar with conduit "sl", but just plain ole Conduit has a laminate and anything with a laminate is not going to be as breathable as something without. I'm not in the "industry" or anything, but I think Epic is much more breathable than any of those fabrics. any one care to back me up? Thanks for the info though. I went with the Pertex Quantum. Edited May 3, 2005 by Dustin_B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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