Sewn vs Tied Runners

[Jeff_T]

Just curious as to what people generally prefer and why. I'm pretty new at this, but I would think that it would be best to have mostly sewn and only a few tied runners. But then, I don't really have any experience...

 

What do you think?

 

Jeff

[catbirdseat]

We've been all over this topic before.

 

I guess the verdict was "to each his own".

[Jeff_T]

Sorry, I gotta learn how to use that Search thingy....Thanks for the link, it was very informative.

 

Jeff

[Steddy]

i thought the ones i sewed on mom's sewing machine when i was 15 were pretty rad.

luckily i read and wised up to not using home-sewn runners about the same time i made 'em.

 

Edited February 14, 2005 by Steddy

[Jason_Martin]

Though it was stated in the linked post, it bears repeating. The biggest problem with tied runners is that they can untie themselves due to cyclic loading. The tails slowly get closer and closer to the knot until they pull through.

 

This isn't a big deal if you pay attention to your runners and retie them every once in awhile. But it is imperative that you do pay attention to the runners and their knots over time.

 

Jason

[EWolfe]

There is a trick with the 9/16" tubular that takes care of the tails and "supposedly" decreases the slippage.

 

Tie a single water knot and move it away from the bitter end.

 

Then, open up one of the tubular webbing and sleeve the other end into the open hole.

 

Be sure you have plenty of "tail" both inside and out, before you work the waterknot back over the sleeved portion.

 

Check by feel to insure there is extra webbing inside, as well as visually inspecting the outside tail.

 

I have climbed on this setup for several years without any noticable slippage.

 

[Blake]

Hey MisterE, that's called a "Beer Knot." It works with 1" tubular as well. It's cleaner, but slightly more bulky than a water knot.

[Steddy]

i remember this nested knot thing too, but can't remember using it - any advantages besides neatness/no tails to hang up?

are they still easy enough to untie after being welded?

[EWolfe]

Hey MisterE, that's called a "Beer Knot." It works with 1" tubular as well. It's cleaner, but slightly more bulky than a water knot.

 

Thanks. I didn't know the name. Basically an overhand knot slid to the side until the sleeving is done:

 

 

It ends up being an sleeved waterknot.

 

No, Ted. The knot won't come undone. That's the point.

[RideT61]

Sewn runners (not home made ones) are stronger. Realistically though, that should never be a concern, if your generating enough force in a fall to break a runner (>22kN) your doing something wrong.

[catbirdseat]

That's pretty darn cool, if you ask me. It should be stronger than a water knot. My only concern would be the ease with which you can monitor the length of the tails when buried out of sight.

 

In a similar vien, there are some single braid splicing techniques from the sailing world that could applied to tubular webbing. These are very strong and can be executed safely by the amateur.

 

Example: http://www.ropeinc.com/sp12b_sbraid_eye_lock_stitch.htm

 

The splice may be too long to be worth the weight. Maybe for a double runner.

Edited February 16, 2005 by catbirdseat

[Blake]

It's easy to feel inside the webbing to tell how much of the tail end there is.

[catbirdseat]

There is a trick with the 9/16" tubular that takes care of the tails and "supposedly" decreases the slippage.

 

Tie a single water knot and move it away from the bitter end.

 

Then, open up one of the tubular webbing and sleeve the other end into the open hole.

 

Be sure you have plenty of "tail" both inside and out, before you work the waterknot back over the sleeved portion.

 

Check by feel to insure there is extra webbing inside, as well as visually inspecting the outside tail.

 

I have climbed on this setup for several years without any noticable slippage.

 

Is there any trick to getting one end to sleeve into the other? I should think you would need a fid to do that. The weave may be too tight to get the fid to exit.

[MisterMo]

Maybe too little, too late but I want to jump in and cast a vote for plain old tied with a water knot runners. With adequate tail & jerked tight I've never had one come loose. No concerns about any sort of wear on stitching. No downside at all that I can think of. YMMV

[EWolfe]

There is a trick with the 9/16" tubular that takes care of the tails and "supposedly" decreases the slippage.

 

Tie a single water knot and move it away from the bitter end.

 

Then, open up one of the tubular webbing and sleeve the other end into the open hole.

 

Be sure you have plenty of "tail" both inside and out, before you work the waterknot back over the sleeved portion.

 

Check by feel to insure there is extra webbing inside, as well as visually inspecting the outside tail.

 

I have climbed on this setup for several years without any noticable slippage.

 

Is there any trick to getting one end to sleeve into the other? I should think you would need a fid to do that. The weave may be too tight to get the fid to exit.

 

Another fisherman! I haven't heard the term "fid" for a few years!

 

I usually take a piece of coathanger and embed it partway into the webbing, then you can sleeve it and pull the wire.

 

[Dru]

fid is a blingin word to use playing scrabble

[Tumblemark]

Sorry to add to the flogging of a thoroughly dead horse, but this is one of my favorite subjects (I have a list, just ask).

 

Runners tied with beer knots (one strand inside the other in a simple overhand knot) are superior to water knots for a couple of reasons: they don't self-untie and they preserve about 80% of the runner strength compared to about 50% for water knots. Beer knots can be untied without too much trouble, easier than a double fisherman (which is what you'd use to re-tie an opened nylon runner). Water knots untie themselves when subject to repeated low loads (like body weight; think: rappelling).

 

To tie a beer knot you need at least 10 inches of overlap with 1-inch webbing and at least 8 inches with 11/16th inch webbing. I can't imagine using beer knots with 9/16 webbing, due the pain of getting one strand inside the other; even 11/16 is questionably worth it--use double fisherman knots instead. I use a chop stick to finagle one strand inside the other.

 

Even better, sew your own runners in nylon webbing. You can't do this with Spectra/Dyneema webbing or thread, but according to The Mountaineering Handbook, "if you can find the right thread (DB92 bonded polyester) and know how to pick the needle and set bobbin tension" you can sew you own runners on a beefy home machine. Home-sewn runners can be as strong as commercially sewn versions, as strong as the webbing itself. That won't be 22 kN for 9/16th inch webbing, but I'd challenge anyone to come up with a realistic climbing scenario where 22 kN would be approached.

 

I admit to sewing my own, have for years, and I've tested the results. The only requirement is getting enough stitches, and that's a matter of dividing the strength of the webbing by the half the strength of the thread and adding a modest safety margin. You can make the sewn section stronger than the webbing itself just by sewing enough stitches. (Don't disagree unless you've actually done the testing.) Sewn runners (commercial or DIY) work because the webbing and threads distort enough so that the load is shared among all (except for Screamers, which are sewn differently).

 

Why would you want to sew your own runners? To make cheap, light 48-inch runners (in 9/16 or 11/16 webbing, which are hard to find commercially) that are multipurpose (can be used to make Klemheist knots that hold on wet or snowy ropes where Spectra/Dyneema runners might not). Also, to make extra long runners on pro, potentially saving the addition of an extra runner and biner. (If the pro will hold 10 kN, the stitching only needs to hold half that, so pro runners don't have to be as strong as separate runners--in principal). To make runners that you can cut and re-tie around a natural feature; Spectra/Dyneema runners won't work because it does not reliably hold knots. Also, nylon webbing, unlike Spectra/Dyneema, does have some energy absorption, comparable to static climbing rope, so "equalized" anchors made with them might actually be closer to real equalization.

[Alpinfox]

...this is one of my favorite subjects (I have a list, just ask).

 

After reading with rapt attention your erudite treatise on synthetic polymer runner construction and the potential applications thereof, I, for one, would find it most elucidating to hear what your other favorite subjects are.

 

The list please.

[Steddy]

Mr. Tumblemark, that was a great read; Mr. Alpinfox, you crack me up.

I second the call for a list and probably move to some new threads.

[Jeff_T]

Wow...never expected so many respones. Thanks for all the great info guys.

 

Jeff

[Tumblemark]

Yo, Alpinfox! Wussup wid dis "show me your list" bidniss? Can't you see from my profile that I'm a lurker? Besides, it's totally OT.

 

But in the spirit of good clean fun... I'm especially interested in (mainly in the contexts of mountaineering and ski mountaineering):

>complex anchors and why SRENE is mostly bogus

>performance nutrition

>training for alpinism

>pulley, rescue, and autoblock systems in the real world

>fast and light climbing tools and techniques

 

Elucidatin' enough fer ya?

And how do y'all know it isn't Ms Tumblemark ;-)

[Dru]

something about that tumblemark name just screams rec.climbing

[Blake]

Yo, Alpinfox! Wussup wid dis "show me your list" bidniss? Can't you see from my profile that I'm a lurker? Besides, it's totally OT.

 

But in the spirit of good clean fun... I'm especially interested in (mainly in the contexts of mountaineering and ski mountaineering):

>complex anchors and why SRENE is mostly bogus

>performance nutrition

>training for alpinism

>pulley, rescue, and autoblock systems in the real world

>fast and light climbing tools and techniques

 

Elucidatin' enough fer ya?

And how do y'all know it isn't Ms Tumblemark ;-)

 

 

Those are nice nice topics, care to elaborate Ms. Tumblemark?

[Blake]

Yo, Alpinfox! Wussup wid dis "show me your list" bidniss? Can't you see from my profile that I'm a lurker? Besides, it's totally OT.

 

But in the spirit of good clean fun... I'm especially interested in (mainly in the contexts of mountaineering and ski mountaineering):

>complex anchors and why SRENE is mostly bogus

>performance nutrition

>training for alpinism

>pulley, rescue, and autoblock systems in the real world

>fast and light climbing tools and techniques

 

Elucidatin' enough fer ya?

And how do y'all know it isn't Ms Tumblemark ;-)

 

 

Those are some nice topics, care to elaborate Ms. Tumblemark?

[Steddy]

hey b l a k e, you deleted your old avatar - now why don't you delete your double post?

and my apologies, tumblemark about the assumption about your sex. my bad,