because I want to know why...

[tempo]

So when I was taught to lead climb (sport), my instructor always said to put in the quick draw first and then clip into the quick draw. I've always done that, and accepted it as fact. The other day though I was noting that when using an aid to clip into a bolt beyond reach, you clip the quickdraw to the rope first and then place the quickdraw. Is there any specific reason why you wouldn't want to clip the quickdraw to the rope and then reach for the bolt in a normal situation?

 

I once had a lead climber get half way up a wall, place a quickdraw and then while reaching for it with the rope lose his grip and drop. I then had to go up to retrieve the quickdraw hanging there...and that meant leading the rest of the wall so I could top rope and retrieve all the gear. I now find myself thinking back on this situation and wondering...why didn't he clip the quickdraw to the rope before reaching for that bolt? I've never seen anyone do that (clip the rope then reach for the bolt)...so why don't they?

[Alpinfox]

I occasionally unclip a quickdraw from a lower piece of gear and moved it to a higher piece of gear leaving the quickdraw attached to the rope during the process. I think it is more awkward and strenuous to pull up the rope with the quickdraw than with my hand. I think this is due to the friction of the rope running through the biner.

[kurthicks]

my concern with clipping the rope first is that if I drop the rope for some reason, there goes the draw...

[iain]

you are effectively fighting a 2:1 pulley system if you pull up the rope on a quickdraw like that.

[tempo]

Another thing that came to mind the other day at the wall...when I was taught the dogma was that you A) always tie in directly to your harness...not to the belay loop and B) when belaying, put the biner through the tie-ins, not the belay loop. (B) has always ALWAYS bothered me...why have this loop there if nothing is ever tied in to it? Is it just for looks? So the other day at the wall I saw, for the first time, a guy on the wall and instead of being tied in to his harness, his rope was tied in on a locking biner through the belay loop. The thought of that scares me...but it made me rethink (B)...why don't folks clip into the belay loop and belay from there? It seems like it'd work fine...

[Alpinfox]

 

Tempo,

Do a SEARCH of this website for past discussions about belay loops.

[olyclimber]

There is a reason it is called a belay loop. It is there for belaying. While it depends on the make/model of the harness, it may or may not be stronger to loop through "tie-ins" when tying in (you're looping through two straps rather than the single belay loop, so it sort of distributes any load). If you look at the design of the harness, it you may actually be able to belay through the "tie-ins" or only through the belay loop. Again, it is dependant on the model/make of the harness.

[kurthicks]

belay loops are used to belay to prevent tri-directional loading on carabiners (miscalled tri-axial in some books). they are ridiculously strong due to their construction of doubled webbing.

 

the reason for tying into the harness directly is simply a matter of wearing out the belay loop too fast. as i said, they are plenty strong. If you're breaking these parts of your harness in a fall, there are other issues to deal with, like imploding internal organs and such. Personally, I feel better tying in through all 3 spots, the waist belt, belay loop, and leg loops on my harness. That way, if I happen to miss one, I'm still connected to it via one of the others.

[tempo]

Are you saying that you would consider tying in directly to the belay loop with your rope? Not just using it for belay?

[kurthicks]

no, i'm saying that i would NOT tie in directly to the belay loop. What I do is go from top-down, starting through the waist belt (next to the belay loop), then pass through the belay loop, then go out the bridge (the leg loop part that holds the belay loop). Maybe I can post a pic later, but i'm working on cooking up some thermo liners right now.