chucK Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Does anyone really care whether or not the Sec of Defense uses his actual hand to sign a fuckin' form letter? Is this "issue" just a smokescreen non-issue to get all the knee-jerkers among the left to embarrass themselves and us? Or perhaps this is just an attention diverter (a la Kerik's nanny) to misdirect people away from the real problem (Iraq = quagmire)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisT Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 well it is a big deal to the thousands who have lost loved ones in Iraq. Not such a big deal to the rest of us... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 I imagine it is a sensitive topic to someone who has lost a loved one. But I can't speak from experience. Rummy does not seem like the most aware guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted December 20, 2004 Author Share Posted December 20, 2004 If my son died over there, I'd be thinking of him. I wouldn't be giving a shit about whether his civillian boss's signature is genuine or not. I'd be focusing on why/how he died. Form letter apology from someone who didn't know him from Adam would be nice, but it's not like it'd turn me for or against the war. That is, in the list of Rumsfeld's failings, non-signatures is not high on the list. Sure it's a shitty thing to do, but using kids for cheap cannon fodder in a war of choice while the big money gets spent on unrealistic anti-missle technology, for example, would seem like a more relevant issue to focus on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 ...but using kids for cheap cannon fodder in a war of choice while the big money gets spent on unrealistic anti-missle technology, for example, would seem like a more relevant issue to focus on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman_Clyde Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 I find it ironic that republican senators are all of a sudden willing to slam Rumsfeld, not for completely bungling the war, but for being insufficiently sensitive in his symbolic gestures. Although this does seem to express the Bush philosophy: it's not your gross mistakes that matter, it's the thickness of your wall of denial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Hey Chuck, Jim et al: You've made quite a few statements that suggest that you are profoundly concerned with the plight of the troops serving in Iraq and that of the Iraqi people. There are a number of ways that you can actually take some constructive action to both alleviate the suffering of the Iraqi people and provide resources that the troops can use to help the Iraqi people, and in so doing provide them with the means to build bridges with the population in small but significant ways. http://www.spiritofamerica.net/ "Message from LtCol Vold -----Original Message----- From: Vold LtCol Jeffery D Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 8:14 AM To: Jim Hake Cc: Kerry Dupont; Crawford Maj Erik M; Bunn LtCol David Subject: Developing Bonds with Iraqi Children Jim, First, I want to thank you for all of the great things Spirit of America has done for the 1st Marine Division here in Iraq. The sewing machines, tool sets for ICAP students, Frisbees, medical supplies, and the untold number of other items you have provided have definitely made a positive impact on our mission here. As you well know, the current security situation dictates that we continue to man numerous traffic control points, conduct cordon and searches of suspected areas of anti Iraqi activity, and perform foot patrols in local neighborhoods. Unfortunately in doing so, many times we inconvenience innocent Iraqi families or groups who are just trying to go about their business. Many of these families or groups have small children with them, and whenever possible we try to brighten their day with a smile and some small token of friendship. As of late, however, we notice that we are starting to run short on some of the items that work the best in reducing the tension and anxiety that are caused by delays and searches. As part of a stepped up Campaign to "win the parents through winning the children" General Natonski has asked that we rebuild and distribute a stockpile of items to give to children when we see them on patrols or inconvenience them and their families during other security activities. As always, time is of the essence, and our ability to obtain such items in this locale is difficult at best. Thus, we would like to ask for Spirit of America's help in obtaining some of these things. I polled the Marines who are on the ground every day and came up with a list of things that they say brightens up children more than others, and in the end, puts the parents in a more positive frame of mind. Here it is: * Children's Sunglasses * Notebooks and colored pens and pencils. * Inexpensive child's watches with a message of friendship on the face or band. * Frisbees - with or without a message. * Soccer balls - still a hit, especially when an air pump is provided with it. Strangely enough, another item that helps develop bonds is Polaroid Cameras. The children love to have their picture taken and to receive a copy on the spot. Many teams report that they have been able to open many doors and break down many barriers with something as simple as a Polaroid picture. Again, unfortunately such cameras are in short supply and difficult to obtain on the local market. However, in the end 200-300 Polaroid cameras with plenty of film spread across the Division zone may go farther in establishing enduring relations than a thousand soccer balls! Jim, again we thank you so much for your support. With Iraqi elections coming up it is more important than ever to reduce tension, cement bonds with the good Iraqi people, and provide them and their children a message of hope for a better future. I look forward to hearing from you. Semper Fi, Jeff Jeffrey D. Vold Lieutenant Colonel United States Marine Corps Deputy G-X 1st Marine Division" And - of course - there are quite a number of organizations that provide convenient ways to send care packages to the troops directly. You all seem sincere in your concerns, so hopefully some of you will take the next step and translate that into action. (Yes. $50 to the "Gifts for Iraqi Children" project via paypal.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 While I appreciate the constructive comments I think one of the points here is that rather than spend billions deploying a missle defense system that does not work just as a payout to the areospace industry, maybe that money would be better spent supplying what is needed to rebuild Iraq now that we've plowed in there. Instead the guys on the ground have to appeal for charity to get what they need for body armor and the items you list. I've said it before: If Bush had said - look, we're going to war, this is going to cost quite a bit and everyone needs to pitch in a bit, so I'm going to raise taxes a bit to pay for this, redistribute some of the military spending out of wasteful programs, and do this right, without making your kids pay for this - I would have still disagreed with going to war for no reason - but would have some measure of respect for the guy. As far as "giving" I try to do my share by giving my time an money I can manage. If your intention was to toss out a good idea for others to pick up then cool. If it was to discount criticism and say STFU and help out, that's not a fair assessment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Most of the stuff these guys want doesn't have as much to do with macro-funding as it does speed. Even when the money is present, getting something that's not part of the standard equipment shipped through the millitary procurement chain can take months and is subject to many layers of approval. With private groups like SOA they can just ask directly and get the things that they have reason to believe will help them and the Iraqis quite a bit faster. With regard to the government's fiscal perogatives, there are quite a number of programs that I would love to get rid immediately and funnel the proceeds into a giant slush fund that the troops serving in Iraq and Afghanistan could use to buy what they need without going through the supply chain, or that would go towards helping the people directly - such as the project that is supplying tool kits and training in the trades to unemployed men, or sewing machine for the women. I think I would get rid of the subsidies for resource extraction on public lands first, then export subsidies for agricultural products, then subsidies for agriculture in general, and work down the list. However, none of the funding on any of these programs relies upon my discretionary income, and consequently their existence and continuance have not affected my ability to make donations here and there. My point is that if you are really concerned and want to help, there are ways to do so. If your primary goal is to cloak a political agenda in the language of sympathy, and endlessly capitalize on the hardships endured by the troops and the people that live where they are deployed to further the said agenda, there's nothing stopping you - but a bit of candor in that regard would be quite welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Well here's about as plain as I can make it. The Bushies screwed up big time. They lied about the reasons for going. They understimated the complexities and the costs. The disbanded the military and police, didn't watch known weapons caches, and made other strategic mistakes. The place is generally in chaos and we have no exit strategy. 30,000 Iraqi civilians have died and over 1,200 US military. Careful planning and economics at home have been sacrificed for politics and a neoconservative agenda. We are not safer because of this war. The US can fund the things you talk about through USAID and other programs, but choose not to, likely because the military and our budget is stretched so much. What I would like us to do is take a global strategy that meshes with some common sense economics, without expecting to pass around the tin cup to the public. I think this travesty is a terrible mistake and will continue to support the charities that I regularly give to, but not this effort. I will continue to bager my legislators about the need for a major reassessment of our empire strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 That's great Jim. I am all for candor. Hopefully others who share your outlook will follow your lead and be honest about their targets and their motivations when discussing the situations in Iraq and Afghanistan from this point forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 I don't always agree with your opinions, but they are clearly stated and offered with intelligence and a grasp of more than current headlines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisT Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Well here's about as plain as I can make it. The Bushies screwed up big time. They lied about the reasons for going. They understimated the complexities and the costs. The disbanded the military and police, didn't watch known weapons caches, and made other strategic mistakes. The place is generally in chaos and we have no exit strategy. 30,000 Iraqi civilians have died and over 1,200 US military. Careful planning and economics at home have been sacrificed for politics and a neoconservative agenda. We are not safer because of this war. The US can fund the things you talk about through USAID and other programs, but choose not to, likely because the military and our budget is stretched so much. What I would like us to do is take a global strategy that meshes with some common sense economics, without expecting to pass around the tin cup to the public. I think this travesty is a terrible mistake and will continue to support the charities that I regularly give to, but not this effort. I will continue to bager my legislators about the need for a major reassessment of our empire strategy. my sentiments exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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