4 more years of...

[selkirk]

Not actually anyone on here. I'm just annoyed at the whole, voting for "core values" that is more trying to enforce their values on everyone else. I've just met too many people who's "core values" are such that they exclude the possibility of anyone else being right or having a valid opinion. I get the impression that a lot of conservatives feel that the Democrats aren't a "moral" or "ethically strong" party, when that's not really true. It's just that most liberals feel that they would rather leave those moral and ethical decisions up to individuals who have to make them whether than trying to make them for everyone else and enforcing their will. (i.e. Roe vs. Wade, is the classic example. I don't think anyone should have an abortion, I don't really think it's ethical. As a catholic i'm fairly sure Kerry feels the same way. The difference is that at the same time I don't think it's right to enforce my beliefs on everyone else, so i'm pro-choice. Same goes for Gay Marriage)

 

That doesn't mean that every practice under the sun should be legal, but there should really be some sort of standard about what's written into law and what's left to personal decision, and in my opinion that standard should be that when your actions begin severly or dangerously affecting other people. And somehow I don't see Gay Marriage really ruining the lives of anyone. The whole "when does life begin" is a little stickier question.

[Norman_Clyde]

 

My dad said: "You liberals don't get it".

 

Your dad is right. I really don't get it. As Klenke said, I'm pathetic, really. I have racked my poor brain for two days now, hoping to understand how 51 per cent of the electorate considers pre-emptive invasion to be moral. Please, any Republican on this page, explain it to me. I consider pre-emptive invasion of another nation to be a tremendous wrong.

 

I'm going to compare Bush to Hitler now, so please bear with me. Look back to WWII, recalling that as the Third Reich marched into Poland, Hitler claimed that Poland had attacked first. Hitler invaded a sovereign nation on false pretenses. Bush invaded a sovereign nation on false pretenses. Both leaders had political support from within; both leaders were vilified by most of the free world. Both claimed moral righteousness, defending their nation's freedom, that no other nation had any standing to criticize their actions.

 

The invasion of Iraq was an extraordinary action, which required extraordinary evidence of threat for any moral justification. The evidence has not been extraordinary, nor even ordinary. It has been nonexistent. "Saddam is a bad man" doesn't even cut it.

 

One more thing. I realize many of you feel homosexuality is an abomination. Though I disagree, I'm not here to argue that particular issue. However, I have not seen any claims that gay marriage is leading to the fiery deaths of thousands of innocents. I do believe that those supporting the Iraq invasion acknowledge the aforementioned fiery deaths. What I want to know, then, is why the moral values electorate sees gay marriage as a greater evil than unjust war.

 

That pretty much sums it up from my viewpoint. I'm ready to be swayed in your direction. I'm willing to change my mind. Please explain.

[scott_harpell]

I don't get the whole trip that most conservatives have with gay marriage.

 

I also don't get why both sides are so polarized on the 10-commandments issue or prayer in schools. My rational is this: The 10 commandments are the baisis for the laws in our country but is it a big deal if they got taken out? Not really. Prayer in schools. I don't see anything that says that you have to pray to jehova or jesus or vishnu but at the same time, is it a big deal if it got taken away? Probably not. I think the only thing people worry about is precedence. The liberals feel taht this is the most religious our nation has ever been and the conservatives think that we have degrading morals. Two view points. Spray away.

[scott_harpell]

Norman. One might make the distinction that Saddam was the one committing genocide not Bush as well. Not a great example if you ask me. Hitler also had every intention of taking over those countries to become part of the reich. Unless you have some info I don't I don't think Bush is planning on colonizing Iraq.

[Gary_Yngve]

I don't get the whole trip that most conservatives have with gay marriage.

 

Right-wing conservatives are scared of two things:

1) gay guys molesting/raping their sons

2) their children "becoming" gay

[scott_harpell]

I don't get the whole trip that most conservatives have with gay marriage.

 

Right-wing conservatives are scared of two things:

1) gay guys molesting/raping their sons

2) their children "becoming" gay

 

I thin this is a cop-out Gary. Lets try to steryotype a bit more shall we?

 

I truly think that both sides are trying to push their moral agendas on the other and it is sad. Que Serrah

[cj001f]

I truly think that both sides are trying to push their moral agendas on the other and it is sad. Que Serrah

What moral agenda are the Dem's trying to push? That government doesn't belong in private life?

[Gary_Yngve]

Scott, I lived in Newt Gingrich's district between the ages of 10 and 17. I think I know what I'm talking about.

[selkirk]

That's half my point Norman. It seems like a lot of people feel that since Iraq isn't christian then they're somehow not worth our time to worry about. That our needs are somehow more important the needs or rights of everyone else in the world, simply because they're. What makes us so special?

 

As for 10 commandments in schools/courthouses... the only issue I have with it is that it does amount to the government, supporting a single religion. If you wanted to have a moment of though in which the teacher let students pray, worship, or feel annoyed as they wanted i'd be fine with that. But if the Teacher is going to lead a christian, or even judeo-christian prayer (as I have a feeling many probably would), that's a big no-no, it's not her place. It might seem fine so long as the entire class is homogonized, white middle class christians of the same denomination where everyone holds the same values, or allowing those who wish to to abstain, but that still marks those who abstain or dissent out as seperate and going through school is hard enough with out extra pressure. Same goes for the 10 commandments in court rooms. Even if that is the basis for our laws, it's arrogant to assume that everyone feels the same way you do about them, the governments place is to enforce the laws, not the 10 commandments, if having those on the wall makes 1 person feel marginalized or threatened than they aren't accptable there.

 

Have to agree with CJ, what moral agenda are the Dems pushing? Acceptance, the government shouldn't be playing in Religion? Everyone should be making their own moral choices whenever possible instead of the government?

[scott_harpell]

Scott, I lived in Newt Gingrich's district between the ages of 10 and 17. I think I know what I'm talking about.

 

I go to church, I don't just live near one. You are full of it and are letting stereotypes dictate the way you think about another person. Give me a break.

[scott_harpell]

I truly think that both sides are trying to push their moral agendas on the other and it is sad. Que Serrah

What moral agenda are the Dem's trying to push? That government doesn't belong in private life?

 

I know what youa re going to say about this but here we go:

 

-abortion

-tearing down the 10 commandments

-prayer in schools

-afirmative action

there are a few.

[slothrop]

How can progressives get conservatives to realize that the government should not legislate morality? Why aren't conservatives satisfied with their churches and communities as sources of moral leadership?

 

The government is there to support and defend the people, regardless of their religious convictions. Government need not, and should not, respect one religion at the expense of another. It's in the Constitution: separation of church and state.

 

Just because state governments fund abortion services for poor people does not imply that government is forcing anyone to have an abortion. Removing the Ten Commandments from public buildings is a better way to respect all religions than, say, forcing religious artifacts from every denomination into public view.

 

I don't understand why anyone would want God in the White House. Many people really do want this. Why is it not enough that God be in their hearts? Is religion really so weak in this country?

[scott_harpell]

You are hyperbolizing it. Ok we do not want God in the White House but at the same time do not want atheism to become the official religion of the U.S. either. That was triend in another country once already. I really don't know what to tell you but I think abortion is murder. I also think it is murder when someone stabs a pregnant woman and the child dies. Seems like a no-brainer there but maybe I am missing something. Trying to say that Christians are trying impliment a theocracy is inflamatory and just plain wrong.

[cj001f]

 

I know what youa re going to say about this but here we go:

 

-abortion

-tearing down the 10 commandments

-prayer in schools

-afirmative action

there are a few.

 

Tearing down the 10 commandments? Scott - the Repubs are trying to erect them!

Affirmative Action is Dead.

Abortion - they are for the right to choose. The same position they've held for 30 years.

[scott_harpell]

Tearing down the 10 commandments? Scott - the Repubs are trying to erect them!

 

Exactly and you are both dumbasses. There are some that have been there for 150 years and are being torn down. It is also stupid to erect them to just piss off the liberals.

[cj001f]

I really don't know what to tell you but I think abortion is murder.

When does life begin Scott? Is stem cell research murder? Contraceptives?

[scott_harpell]

Affirmative Action is Dead.

 

Much to the chagrin of whom?

[slothrop]

Scott, conservatives have to come together with liberals on the abortion issue. Everyone agrees that beating your wife to death is murder. No one will say otherwise. But there are a lot of people who say that abortion is not murder, but a way to avoid unwanted children who would otherwise be destined to live under the shadow of resentment, poverty, incest, or rape. Both "sides" of the issue are taking moral positions, but the difference with the progressive side is that progressives support individual freedom.

 

Atheism is not the same as not supporting one religion over another. And the USSR did not just embody atheism in government, it actively suppressed religion. I don't know too many people who want to deny someone else's right to worship. For you to suggest that liberals want to do so is ridiculous. This country was founded on religious freedom and it will stay that way.

 

I have heard people say they see God acting through Bush and they wanted such a "vessel of God" in power. That sounds like theocracy to me.

[scott_harpell]

Everyone agrees that beating your wife to death is murder

 

Ooo I never said nor implied that. I think that when a guy kills a pregnant mother he should receive a double homicide.It has nothign to do with my political leanings. It is us the way I think abotu life. I think people should be responsible for their actions and this includes the men who knocked the women up in the first place. I think that the legislation should be stricter on dead beat dads rather than letting everyone just erase the mistakes they have made.

[scott_harpell]

And the USSR did not just embody atheism in government

 

Yes it did. It was part of the arxist doctrine ratified by Lenin, Stalin, Glasnost and Peristroika. I do think that Atheism is a religion. This is the reason that I feel that prayer in schools is ok. Everyone ahs their reigion and they can do whatever they want with the time they have allocated for "spiritual contemplation."

[slothrop]

I'd support harsher penalties for deadbeat dads, but it's not really a man's choice in the end, is it? Women need to have the choice to get an abortion if all the social pressures and contraceptives have failed to keep her from getting pregnant when she didn't want to. You have to approach the problem of unwanted pregnancies from all directions without removing personal freedoms.

 

The murder example was just to point out that "abortion = murder" is not a concept that everyone agrees on, so there is room for compromise.

[Stefan]

Basic truth in 2004 election: Fear is a motivation for an action.

 

This is how a lot of people voted. Fear. Some voted for hopes, dreams, and job performance, but mostly people voted for certain candidates because they were sold on the campaign of fear--and they did not know they were being sold on the campaign of fear.

[slothrop]

Dude, I said "not just" and then went on to say that the USSR suppressed Christianity, Judaism, etc.

[scott_harpell]

This is how a lot of people voted. Fear.

 

Not true at all. At best this is a generalization. You cannot tell me that the democrats put up a strong candidate. This is the real erason that Bush got re-elected.

[Stefan]

This is how a lot of people voted. Fear.

 

Not true at all. At best this is a generalization. You cannot tell me that the democrats put up a strong candidate. This is the real erason that Bush got re-elected.

 

You cannot deny it as well as I cannot prove it until you understand the feelings of everyone. You are not the speaker for everyone. This is an opinion from my observation.

 

I do know both parties used fear.