EcoTopia

[JayB]

E-Rock I think that fine particulates generated by diesel engines are RobBob is talking about, not individual molecules of CO2. Not sure if this particular claim has any merit or not, but particulates settling on snow or ice will surely accelerate melting to some degree.

[dukiebird]

Oh, its fuckin' on now...

 

 

First of all, I would like to clarify my position. I am very much an environmentalist, and have EXTREME concern for the future of a planet and ecosystem that is much older, and in my mind, important than one arrogant species of naked monkey that has managed to create more extinction, more habitat destruction, and more widespread alteration to the planet that we live on than any species or natural disaster that has EVER EXISTED, all in a fraction of a blink of an eye, as time goes. I know that some of you rockheads are thinking about bringing up the whole "what about that big comet that killed the dinosaurs?" argument, don't even waste your time writing it.

http://www.well.com/user/davidu/extinction.html

I know that just because scientists believe it to be true doesn't make it 100% fact, but if anyone really wants me to, I can keep coming up with sources, articles, and scientific peer reviewed studies that all point to the same thing.

 

The attitude of "I can do whatever the hell I want with my land" is extremely short sighted and selfish. If you have kids, well hell, you made them, they're yours, right? So you should be able to do whatever the hell you want with them too, right? Owning land carries responsibility, and the responsibility to your community to consider the effects of what you want to do with your land are similar to your obligations to society regarding what you want to do to your child. In both cases, you DO NOT OWN EITHER! You are paying to supervise what is done with them right now, but after you're worm food, the effects of your descisions will be felt, by the community that has to deal with the flooding caused by the development of a wetland on your property, or by the people that are hurt by your angry child that you abused (if you wanted to, of course. He is yours...). There are laws telling you what you can't do to a child, so you're goddamn right, you will be told what you can't do with your land. It's everyones problem, as is every other environmental issue. You can drive your Hummer to Burger King all you want, but when you get cancer from air pollution, and your dream home is destroyed by a storm strengthened by global warming (its happening NOW, http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0008C7B2-E060-1C73-9B81809EC588EF21 ) you'll be calling for regulations to stop these things from happening. The fact that some of you seem to think that it is acceptable to do nothing is insane to me, as is every other American that does the same, most notably the lunatics running our country right now. The fact that you would go off so savegely on someone, and indeed anyone, that is working hard to save the world FOR YOU makes you a complete ingrate. Blue Tuberosa is not the governement telling you what to do with your life, she/he is buying land to conserve it and help lock up carbon to combat global warming. Others of my cause are fighting so that YOU don't die at the age of 40, so that YOUR KIDS won't grow up in a world where Tigers and Whales are as real and live as dinosaurs and wooly mammoths, so that YOU AND ALL THE REST OF YOU SHORT-SIGHTED NUMBNUTS can have air to breathe, water to drink, and food to eat that doesn't contain chemicals that were never meant to be ingested.

 

The claim that the loggin industry gets away with murder is bullshit, you are flat out wrong, and ignorant for not doing more research. I work as an environmental forestry intern for Weyerhaeuser, and I have been all over the field to make sure that my company is obeying and exceeding laws, yes laws, children, that are set down to protect habitat in and anywhere downstream of one of our tree FARMS, emphasis on FARMS. We own land, and certainly cannot do whatever we want with it, but to conduct a farming operation (which, by the way, produces less pollution, and provides infinitely more wildlife habitat than a similarly sized farm), we need to make sure that we protect sensitive areas, large rivers are left with buffers of forest that are upwards of 50 meters, and even high mountain trickles are given at least 20. Clearcuts are replanted within a month of them being cut to control erosion, often with multi-species stands. Everyone hates my company, but has tons of sympathy for farmers, who alter ecosytems much more drastically and permanently than us.

 

And what, you will undoubtedly want to ask, am I doing, apart from talking about it, personally, what sacrifices to I make, now that I've asked others to make sacrifices? I 1) am a vegertarian, working towards vegan 2) do not own a car, but walk, bike, or use public transportation to get around 3) donate a good potion of MY hard-earned money to the Nature Conservancy and other orgs to support their work. If you think any of these are easy, you should try them for a month, or even a week.

 

Lastly, extremism helps noone. Willingness to compromise is the only thing that will make environmentalism work, and writing all environmentalists off as silly granola-munching hippies is as bad as expecting everyone to go vegan and stop building, farming, etc. I know that not all conservatives are ignorant, selfish rednecks permanantly stuck in denial, but it would help to convince me if those carachteristics didn't always surface when these topics come up.

 

Anyone who wants to say something in response had damn well better think, or better yet research, before they try. Bring it on...

[dukiebird]

Geez, I don't think I've ever written that much in one sitting. You guys must have really pissed me off...

[Dru]

i say snugtopia or pagetopia would be even better than ecotopia

[Greg_W]

Comparing owning land and having children is stupid. When you purchase land...as in, property, it is yours to do with as you see fit, within the bounds of current laws, statutes and codes. As a landowner, I believe, you should develop or use your land responsibly. Maintaining that you do not own land even though you purchase it, but merely manage it, is silly. Property rights are foundational to the freedoms we enjoy in this country.

[cracked]

I had visions, I was in them

I was looking into the mirror

To see a little bit clearer

Rottenness and evil in me

 

Fingertips have memories

Mine can't forget the curves of your body

And when I feel a bit naughty

I run it up the flagpole and see who salutes

(but no one ever does)

 

I'm not sick but I'm not well

And I'm so hot cause I'm in hell

 

Been around the world and found

That only stupid people are breeding

The cretins cloning and feeding

And I don't even own a tv

 

Put me in the hospital for nerves

And then they had to commit me

You told them all I was crazy

They cut off my legs now i'm an amputee, G*d damn you

 

I'm not sick but I'm not well

And I'm so hot cause I'm in hell

I'm not sick but I'm not well

And it's a sin to live so well

 

I wanna publish zines

And rage against machines

I wanna pierce my tongue

It doesn't hurt, it feels fine

The trivial sublime

I'd like to turn off time

And kill my mind

You kill my mind

 

Paranoia! Paranoia!

Everybody's coming to get me

Just say you never met me

I'm going underground with the moles

Hear the voices in my head

I swear to God it sounds like they're snoring

But if you're bored then you're boring

The agony and the irony, they' re killing me

 

I'm not sick but I'm not well

And I'm so hot cause I'm in hell

I'm not sick but I'm not well

And it's a sin to live so well

 

[RobBob]

First of all, I would like to clarify my position. I am very much an environmentalist, and have EXTREME concern for the future of a planet and ecosystem that is much older, and in my mind, important than one arrogant species of naked monkey that has managed to create more extinction, more habitat destruction, and more widespread alteration to the planet that we live on than any species or natural disaster that has EVER EXISTED...

 

The claim that the loggin industry gets away with murder is bullshit, you are flat out wrong, and ignorant for not doing more research. I work as an environmental forestry intern for Weyerhaeuser, and I have been all over the field to make sure that my company is obeying and exceeding...

 

 

This is absolutely priceless!!!

 

First you ream out mankind for doing so much harm to the earth, wreaking such havoc on nature (aren't we part of what has naturally happened on Earth?)...

 

Then you give the entire logging industry a pass on environmental issues because you are an intern there???!!!

 

I have fucking been a neighbor to Weyerhaueser, have dealt with Weyerhaueser since you were in your Pampers. For you to think you have a handle on the long-running operations of a major company as an intern is just about the wildest egotistical stretch I've heard of in some time!!

[cracked]

The world won't change too much in my lifetime. So I'm happy to just continue my greedy consumerism ways, drive my Hummer to the mall, burn more oil just for the hell of it, eat spotted owls for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and all that. I'll pave over wetlands any day, just for kicks. After all, I'll be dead in 60 or so years, I'm sure the world will support human life until then. I really don't care what happens after that. At some point, when humans have pushed nature's balance too far, the world will come back and bite us in the ass. Maybe 99 percent of the human population will die due to plague, maybe a flood will wipe us our. Maybe we'll burn all the oil, our civilization will collapse, the icecaps will melt, and widespread famine, disease, and floods will wipe us out. Whatever. And cockroaches will rule the Earth, just like God wanted them to. There's a balance, and no matter what we do, Mother Nature will push that balance back at some point. So I'm not going to worry about it. Now excuse me, I've got some missiles to launch...

 

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/end.php

[Greg_W]

And what, you will undoubtedly want to ask, am I doing, apart from talking about it, personally, what sacrifices to I make, now that I've asked others to make sacrifices? I 1) am a vegertarian, working towards vegan 2) do not own a car, but walk, bike, or use public transportation to get around 3) donate a good potion of MY hard-earned money to the Nature Conservancy and other orgs to support their work. If you think any of these are easy, you should try them for a month, or even a week.

 

The fact that you take these actions of your own volition is quite admirable. However, don't fucking try and legislate me to do that shit. You make choices for yourself, and I applaud that, but the next step with you enviro-nuts is to want to make all this shit the law. That is not what a FREE country is about, man.

 

On a sidenote, why anyone would voluntarily go vegan, I'll never know.

[Dru]

The world won't change too much in my lifetime.

 

oh really?

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3879841.stm

 

Strange things are happening in the North Sea. Cod stocks are slumping

faster than over-fishing can account for, and Mediterranean species like red

mullet are migrating north.

Several sea birds are also in trouble. Kittiwake numbers are falling fast

and guillemots are struggling to breed. And, earlier this summer, hundreds

of fulmar (a relative of the albatross) corpses washed up on the Norfolk

coast, having apparently starved to death. Scientists suspect these events

are linked and they are trying to work out how. Nothing is certain yet, but

some believe a dramatic change in North Sea plankton is responsible. And,

what is more, they blame global warming.

Global changes

Plankton are microscopic free-floating marine organisms. Globally they are

of vital importance. Phyto-plankton (tiny plants) are behind 50% of the

Earth's photosynthesis. And, along with zoo-plankton (tiny animals), they

form the base of the whole ocean food web. But, over the last 20 years,

these little organisms have been undergoing a radical shake-up in the North

Sea. Broadly speaking, as global temperatures rise, cold water species are

moving out and warm water species are moving in.

"The North Sea was a cold temperate ecosystem in the 1980s, but since the

1990s it has changed into a warm temperate ecosystem," explained Martin

Edwards, of the Sir Alistair Hardy Foundation for Ocean Science (SAHFOS),

Plymouth, UK. "So all the cold water species of plankton have moved much

further north, and they are being replaced by more sub-tropical species."

The decline of a particular species of phyto-plankton, which blooms in early

spring, is key to changes further up the food chain. Many small animals feed

on this spring bloom - and even time their own emergence to match it. Now it

is going, they are dying.

Dr Edwards said: "The spring bloom is declining, and the cold water

zoo-plankton that feed on the spring bloom are declining as well - and so

are the fish larvae that feed on the zoo-plankton." And so - presumably -

are other fish that feed on those larvae and the birds that feed on the

fish.

Over the edge

Martin Edwards and bird expert Sarah Wanless, from Nerc Centre for Ecology

and Hydrology, have got together to try to pinpoint how this is happening.

"We have already shown that kittiwakes are declining and declining quite

rapidly - but at the moment we don't know the mechanisms," said Dr Wanless.

"And that is why we are joining up the bird work with the plankton work, so

we can see how these links actually operate.

"What Martin Edwards and his colleagues are showing is that there is a

profound difference in the plankton in the North Sea, and we are seeing a

decline in the sand eels that many birds feed on." She continued: "We

speculate these are climate driven changes, which are working their way

right through the food chain. And we are seeing signals emerging from the

birds. "In some cases we are finding a whole lot of adult birds dead and in

other cases that the birds are abandoning their chicks."

And there might be worse to come. Because sea birds are generally long

lived, changes happen rather slowly. So what we are seeing now could be,

some fear, the tip of the iceberg. "Some species might decline to the extent

where they are no longer present," said Dr Wanless. "And kittiwakes might

well be one of the first to disappear."

Emerging picture

Amazingly the role of plankton, and how they are affected by climate, has

not been extensively studied in the past. "Work on plankton is hugely

important," said Dr Chris Reid, the Director of SAHFOS. "The world's oceans

make up more than 70% of the world's surface and 50% of the primary

production in the world comes from phyto-plankton, but as yet we have very

little idea about how this changes regionally or with time."

Now, the story behind some of the North Sea mysteries is beginning to

unfold. Dr Wanless said: "Everybody working in the North Sea is seeing big

changes, but what we need to do now is get everybody together, to try to

piece the whole jigsaw together."

[cracked]

What does going vegan REALLY do for the environment?

[cracked]

You're right Dru, Judgement Day is tomorrow! It's GOTTA be Global Warming. Hell, I couldn't sleep last night because it was too warm out.

 

"Gee, I'm sorry Boss, I'm not productive today because of GLOBAL WARMING. It's not my fault! "

[Dru]

it's about 10x more efficient to feed grain directly to people than it is to feed grain to cows and then feed steaks to people.

[cracked]

Yeah, but you can feed cattle on grass, then you don't have to plow up the wetlands to plant grain!

[Dru]

You're right Dru, Judgement Day is tomorrow! It's GOTTA be Global Warming. Hell, I couldn't sleep last night because it was too warm out.

 

"Gee, I'm sorry Boss, I'm not productive today because of GLOBAL WARMING. It's not my fault! "

 

it might work if you were a kittiwake, but you are too fat to fly.

[Greg_W]

it's about 10x more efficient to feed grain directly to people than it is to feed grain to cows and then feed steaks to people.

 

But it's healthier to eat meat; your body needs the protein and other nutrients. Plus, we have incisors for cutting and tearing flesh - we're born meateaters. So, knock off the horns and hooves, slap her on the bbq, and pass the A-1!!!

[cracked]

nd what, you will undoubtedly want to ask, am I doing, apart from talking about it, personally, what sacrifices to I make, now that I've asked others to make sacrifices? I 1) am a vegertarian, working towards vegan 2) do not own a car, but walk, bike, or use public transportation to get around 3) donate a good potion of MY hard-earned money to the Nature Conservancy and other orgs to support their work. If you think any of these are easy, you should try them for a month, or even a week.

I've gone without eating meat for a week. Maybe even longer. I don't own a car. I walk, I ride my bike, or I take the bus. Whoa! I don't give money to extremist organizations because I never agree with their goals. But if I did, I'm sure it wouldn't be very difficult to write them a check.

 

You're not as special as you want us to think!

[Dru]

Yeah, but you can feed cattle on grass, then you don't have to plow up the wetlands to plant grain!

 

try buying purely range fed beef. just try.

 

on the other hand, mutton is purely range fed. and you can feed pigs inedible swill.

[cracked]

Still, my point is made. Ever tried eating grass for a week? I imagine it would be tough! So instead of wasting that grass, feed it to a cow, then eat the cow. That way we all win.

 

How about birds? I love eating a dead bird!

[dukiebird]

Greg, as much as you like to think you own the land forever, you don't. Like I said, after you're dead, you're not gonna own it anymore, and whoever does is gonna have to deal with whatever you did with it. RoboBob, pull your condescending geriatric head out of your ass and re-read my post. Nowhere in it did I give the logging industry, or even my company a "pass on environmental issues", nor did I say that I have control over, or even know by heart the laws that we obey, but I absolutly would bet my life on the fact that I know a LOT more about the workings and policies than you do, even if you've "been a neighbor" for a long time. I know what logging companies have been responsible for in the past and it appals me, and I don't personally think that the laws we follow now are enough, but the fact is that Weyerhaueser bends over backwards to find ways to make logging more sustainable, even if you don't see it. The point I THOUGHT I was making was that you shouldn't think that we get away with anything, we follow rules like everyone else. Next time, you should clean off your spectacles and read a bit more carefully, especially the last line.

[JayB]

Take a tour of all of the Glaciers in Colorado for a real insight into the ravages of global warming. Hell - take a drive to Ranier. The glaciers there have sustained a several thousandfold retreat since the last ice age.

[dukiebird]

Cracked, you sound like a real nice guy, can I buy you a drink sometime? Greg, I think making veganism a law would cause anarchy, good call. Creating laws about diet is pretty extreme, which is not what I consider myself.

[Greg_W]

Greg, as much as you like to think you own the land forever, you don't. Like I said, after you're dead, you're not gonna own it anymore, and whoever does is gonna have to deal with whatever you did with it.

 

Regardless, I own it. Period. Don't qualify it. If I want it to increase in value (which we all do with our investments), I need to be responsible. That's the part you leave out.

 

Will you come over and eat my lawn? We hate mowing it.

[dukiebird]

Only if you come over and eat my ass. I hate wiping

[Greg_W]

touche.