JoshK Posted June 10, 2004 Posted June 10, 2004 Figured a few might find this interesting. I just sent this note to Americans United for Seperation of Church and State: I am incoming student at the University of Colorado at Boulder, beginning this fall quarter. Among the many pieces of mail I have recieved from UC Colorado in the past few months, I recieved a letter addressed from "United Campus Ministries at C.U.". Enclosed was a card titled "C.U. Religious Contact Card" and a group of check boxes I could fill-in to recieve information about various denominational groups and non-denominational ministries. Also enclosed was a letter explaning why joining a faith based group could "be important parts of your intellectual questioning and growth during the college years". The ending line of the letter was "P.S. Remember to mail the card in today!", with the "mail the card" underlined. On the envelope there was a stamp reading "State of Colorado, Official Mail, Penalty for Private Use" The fact that this mailing was sent with Colorado state funds seems like a violation of church and state to me. Please let me know if you have any more information. I will keep the mailing for the time being. Quote
JoshK Posted June 10, 2004 Author Posted June 10, 2004 I figured I'd leave the mark of limecat off. I did, however, send a threating not to the religious nazi right threating a beat down at the paws of limecat. Quote
Ratboy Posted June 10, 2004 Posted June 10, 2004 Maybe it was one of Bush's "faith-based initiatives", where religious organizations can get federal money to push their beliefs on others. As long as they are Christian. Quote
Double_E Posted June 10, 2004 Posted June 10, 2004 On the envelope there was a stamp reading "State of Colorado, Official Mail, Penalty for Private Use" The fact that this mailing was sent with Colorado state funds seems like a violation of church and state to me. well I don't like church-state cozyness aanny more than you JK, far from it, but I gotta say .... it sounds like this UCMCU group is a CU student group, right? therefore they get the same priveledges (such as free or discounted mail, emblazoned with the distinguished logos of the State of Colorado) that any other CU student group is gonna get. I'm sure that things like free/discounted mail is also enjoyed by the likes of the CU Climbers Club .... and the CU Chicano Union ... and the CU African Peoples Alliance ... and the CU Goth Club ... and the Chess Club.... the Cat-Lovers Club, the Women of Color Club, the Men of Ponytails Club, the Earth-Firsters, the Earth-Lasters, the Violin Club, the Bubble Tea Club, the.... you get the idea. Quote
JoshK Posted June 10, 2004 Author Posted June 10, 2004 It's sent from an actual CU address, from a CU building. Simply allowing them to exist and funding them are two different things. It's hard to tell but that is why I'll let UA figure it out. They've got a legal team for that. Note that I didn't get a card in the mail from the climbers club or the african pride club or the model rocket club or the... Quote
marylou Posted June 10, 2004 Posted June 10, 2004 I like Lime Kitty a lot more than having my tax money paying for having my tax dollars pay for religious clubs to do mailings. Quote
Dan_Harris Posted June 10, 2004 Posted June 10, 2004 Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, . . . Which religion is the state of Colorado establishing as the state religion with this mailing? Funding / mailing for all clubs or no clubs! What CU should probably have done is ask all clubs on campus if they want info sent to incoming students and then send it out as a packet. Quote
scott_harpell Posted June 10, 2004 Posted June 10, 2004 Dan is right, they are not promoting a national religion so it doesn't go against the provision. I would be willing to bet there is also a funded Muslim club and if not, there is likely no provision preventing it. Quote
JoshK Posted June 10, 2004 Author Posted June 10, 2004 There were a whole bunch of options, muslim included. That isn't the point..it is a state sponsered mailing with a card titled "C.U. RELIGIOUS CONTACT CARD, please return immediately!" I don't think it matters if they offer 1 choice or 100, they are using tax dollars to suggest some sort of affiliation. No use speculating anyway, I have no clue either...which is why I sent it on to some people that do. They may just as well say it's ok, but that is for them to decide. Quote
scott_harpell Posted June 10, 2004 Posted June 10, 2004 That is what colleges do. It is not the college suggesting affiliation, but rather the club. If access to club funding is not restricted to certain religions, than there is no direct affiliation with the club and the college. If the state college was sending out these cards directly, you might have a point, but it is a club. Quote
Double_E Posted June 10, 2004 Posted June 10, 2004 I'm very curious to know what the AUSCS legal team sez about this, please keep us posted JK. like I said I don't like church-state cozyness one bit, but this is one type of it that i find totally acceptable... as long as the other student groups get the same amount of funding as the UCMCU (which I'm sure this AUSCS will investigate). so if so, whats the big deal?? all them student groups want to bring people to their cause. I suspect that the reason you only got mail from the UCMCU is that the have more money (from independent funding) than the other groups. I'm sure tho that all the student groups are eligible for them fancy little envelopes the the state logo and all. something tells me you're also kinda annoyed by the "please return immediately" thing on their letter. whatever -- throw it away fer chrissakes! no one's holding a gun to your head. every week I get 5 or 6 offers for credit cards saying "please return immediately". ya know what I do? I toss em. It's really pretty simple. Quote
JoshK Posted June 10, 2004 Author Posted June 10, 2004 I'll definitely post the result; like I said, I have no clue one way or another. I guess what I found annoying is that for all the other student groups they simply point you to a list where you can browse all of them. They went out of their way to send a specific list of all the religious student groups and encourage me to join one. It looks like this group that sent it is not actually a specific student group but rather an institution of the university that promotes these groups. Who knows though... Quote
Dan_Harris Posted June 10, 2004 Posted June 10, 2004 Just curious about opinions on a related matter. I teach at a public high school. We have a bible club on campus, definitely christian. Announments of meetings are printed in the daily bulletin along with all the other clubs meetings. Public moneys pay for the printing. They have an information table just like all the other clubs at the beginning of the year. Should this be allowed? Is this promoting one religion? Quote
scott_harpell Posted June 10, 2004 Posted June 10, 2004 I don't think so unless other religions can do the same. They don't have to be doing it, but they have to have the same rights. $.02 moya Quote
Dan_Harris Posted June 10, 2004 Posted June 10, 2004 ok, let me get this straight. The Lutheran Church was founded by Martin Luther in a schism with the Roman Catholic Church, but still have the same basic beliefs in God and Jesus. That is holy trinity yada, yada, yada. This guy now says there is no God and the bishop just says bad boy, stop it!? Why didn't they just kick his ass out and say go start your own church? Quote
scott_harpell Posted June 10, 2004 Posted June 10, 2004 because the church leaders are hired by the state in many places in europe. the congregation may be pissed, but it is likely that the government just doesn't care. you can't just fire a government official because you don't like his religion now can you? Quote
Dru Posted June 10, 2004 Posted June 10, 2004 i like how the bishop on his case is named Bishop Rebel. Quote
jjd Posted June 10, 2004 Posted June 10, 2004 Why didn't they just kick his ass out and say go start your own church? Did you bother to read the ENTIRE article? Quote
Dan_Harris Posted June 10, 2004 Posted June 10, 2004 Yes, what did I miss? Briefly Preacher: There is no God. Bishop: Bad boy, you're suspended. Preacher: Oh, sorry. Bishop: Suspension lifted. Preacher: There is no God. Bishop: There you go again. You're causing confusion. Stop it. Preacher: I'm puzzled! Quote
jjd Posted June 10, 2004 Posted June 10, 2004 Paragraphs 2 and 3: Helsingoer Bishop Lise-Lotte Rebel suspended Rev. Thorkild Grosboell, pastor of Taarbaek, and handed his case to the government "requesting that it take the necessary steps." In Denmark, Lutheran ministers are employed by the state and only the government can fire them and only with a recommendation from their presiding bishop. Rebel oversees the diocese that includes Taarbaek, a small town north of Copenhagen. Quote
Dan_Harris Posted June 10, 2004 Posted June 10, 2004 Thanks jjd. I read it twice, but I guess not carefully enough. School had just ended for the summer and I had already switched by brain off! Quote
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