Peter_Puget Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 A friend and myself are trying to free climb an aid route with several sections protected by a bunch of fixed heads. Obviously these guys are not only ugly but they are getting in the way of essential jams. The problem is that by removing the trash (which we did in some sections) we are making the use of hammers mandatory. In a sense one is now, it is just that currently the hammer is only needed when a head pulls or more likely the cable breaks. The question is should we have removed the heads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 peter, is the climb a popular aid route?? i doub it, i cannot think of too many routes in washington that could go free with heading on them(i may be ignorant) i say if they route can go free, then it should. what protection opportunities are you looking for?? can you use micro nutz or something similar??? are you planning on bolting it?? certainly the removal of the fixed heads will result in some scarring, but will the next person be able to reuse the placement?? will an aid climber feel the need to re-head the pitch if they come across it?? lotsa questions yo?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 Um, I'm trying to imagine how you could possibly use a head seam for finger jams, or how/why you could possibly use finger jams for heads... If it is possible to get tips in this crack, then the heads should be unessecary, and should be removed regardless. Erik brings up a good point. How will you protect your free ascent? Gear...if so, then it sounds like the heads shoudn't be there in the first place. Bolts...bad form in my opinion. I don't think aid climbs should be bolted just cause someone wants to try and free climb it. It basicaly ruins the pitch for anyone aspiring to aid it. Heads arn't a permenant fixture, and anyone planing on doing a route with fixed heads should be prepared to deal if some are missing, or bad. If they didn't bring a hammer or cheater stick...tough luck I guess, enjoy the ride down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 quote: Originally posted by erik: peter, is the climb a popular aid route?? i doub it, i cannot think of too many routes in washington that could go free with heading on them(i may be ignorant) Both the Liberty Crack and Thin Red Line(I think) go free, and have head sections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 quote: Originally posted by ScottP: and that David Blaine levitation thing... On a serious note, is a pitch really considered free if the majority of the population has to aid it? Yeah the Lithuanian Lip has reportedly gone free, but is it really a free pitch? Yes. Too bad we all suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: Lambone’s “don’t bolt it because then you are removing an aid challenge” is interesting because by removing the heads and free climbing it, we have prevented many who previously aided the route from climbing it unless they choose to hammer stuff in a free pitch. We have in essence done what Lambone admonished us not to do. PP Hey Peter, I'd say if you've go what it takes to free it without pro, go for it! What I admonished you not to do was place bolts, so that the exitement of aiding the pitch on "bodyweight" placements is not removed. This is quite different than removing old fixed gear/junk. Doing this only returns the route to its "original state." I emphisize original, because there was only one true original state. Also, as I mentioned before. If aid climbers are not willing to place their own copperheads, then they should stay of routes that potentialy require them to place heads. Of course, as you mention, that opens up a whole 'nother can 'o worms, and as Scott mentions, what exactly is considered a "free pitch." I'd say that if you removed the heads and free climbed it without pro, RIGHT ON! Good form, thumbs up. Sounds similar to what the Huber brothers have been doing on El Cap. However, proclaiming this success on a public forum, yet not telling others what, where, or when this took place is just kinda lame. [ 05-30-2002, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Lambone ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 So exactly how does one go about removing copperheads from the jams? Do you need to use a chisel? I guess this doesn't need to be a hypothetical question. Peter, how did you guys clean the copperheads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 You can clean old fixed heads with funkness or with a little physical lovin from a Lost Arrow... no need to chisel... or you can bounce test them that usually works Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Lambone: Um, I'm trying to imagine how you could possibly use a head seam for finger jams, or how/why you could possibly use finger jams for heads... (snip) I was wondering about this myself. Even the tiniest finger cracks usually take RP's/micronuts/ittybitty cams, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted May 30, 2002 Author Share Posted May 30, 2002 I guess to be more explicit, my sense is that short of the most amazing hooking I can imagine to aid the pitch we have freed would require a hammer. Since it has been free climbed sans hammer wouldn’t it be “bad” to nail it. The badness comes from not only damaging the rock after it has been climbed free but also by messing up the holds used in free climbing it. A formerly moderate aid route now has free climbing that makes it too hard for 90% of those who previously climbed it. Plus placing a bashie which is great right now and will suck in a couple years will make it less than desirable for free climbing. Heads are removed by me at least (most w/o cables by the way) with a center punch and needlenose. They are really variable as to how difficult they are to remove. Clarification: I said jams but I didn’t really mean jams in the usual sense. I meant finger holds and indentations/grooves. Dru – Isn't a LA is really just a poorly designed chisel? Using a chisel doesn’t mean you are trying to chip the rock. Lambone’s quote: “However, proclaiming this success on a public forum, yet not telling others what, where, or when this took place is just kinda lame.” Lambone – The 6th word in my original post is “trying” It is a long climb and we haven’t tried all of it yet. As far as keeping it secret, it is 1,000 miles away and since we can only get there a few weeks ago and next fall, we do not want to spill the beans on specifics. When we asked out local sources about it they all advised against asking around much so we didn’t give someone an idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: The first section in question has been freed with a new bashie (an old chounaird alum head) and some runout climbing. PP Oh, I guess I was thinking about this statement... Sounds like whether you remove the heads or not, the pitch will continue to be hammered as old ones fall out or need to be replaced. If it is a popular aid route, people will continue to aid it (using heads)regardles of whether you have free climbed it or not. Good luck on your project! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 so suppose You (the non-hypothetical but actually real Peter Puget you) remove the fixed gear (and add no bolts) so that You can free the thing, and You succeed (way to go!). If then You hear that some dude has gone up and aided the thing and bashed in some new heads ... are you going to feel like finding him and laying the smack down for hammering on 'Your Climb'? Or are you going to feel like 'well I already had my fun on that piece of rock and now he can have his fun and it's all good let's buy another round '. Whether you remove the fixed gear or not you have zero control over how much following climbers will scar the rock, only they have that control. I say have your fun, tread carefully yourself and then move on, and have faith that most other climbers will feel the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted May 31, 2002 Author Share Posted May 31, 2002 Erik/Lambone – I am sworn to secrecy on the location. The first section in question has been freed with a new bashie (an old chounaird alum head) and some runout climbing. My question was/is not really about adding bolts but rather asks: is it a good thing to free a route by removing fixed gear and thus creating a runout free route? Lambone’s “don’t bolt it because then you are removing an aid challenge” is interesting because by removing the heads and free climbing it, we have prevented many who previously aided the route from climbing it unless they choose to hammer stuff in a free pitch. We have in essence done what Lambone admonished us not to do. PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 [ 05-30-2002, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: erik ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 aid climber can always get past the missing heads with some extensive trickery: cam hooks zerocams splither gear onecam units, 'popeheads', duct tape time bombs, trained squirrels, or stick clip your next piece or whatever.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dru: aid climber can always get past the missing heads with some extensive trickery: cam hooks zerocams splither gear onecam units, 'popeheads', duct tape time bombs, trained squirrels, or stick clip your next piece or whatever.... You forgot 1/4" (6mm) webbing and superglue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 and trading 5L of water for a chance to jug some fixed lines Chongo hitchhiker style. also forgot to mention filed down Pika Mallards! and use of helium balloons while hooking delicate flakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 and that David Blaine levitation thing... On a serious note, is a pitch really considered free if the majority of the population has to aid it? Yeah the Lithuanian Lip has reportedly gone free, but is it really a free pitch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted May 31, 2002 Author Share Posted May 31, 2002 When I first started thinking about this issue I was blindly assuming that aid climbers would simply not climb the route because they would not want to use hammers on a clean free section and that free climbers would eschew the route because of the shitty pro. Shitty I might add for subsequent ascentionists not me. I was laboring under the assumption that our actions had basically made the climb not an option for many and honestly was wondering if that was such a good thing. From the responses here it seems that at least with regard to aid climbers the consensus is that they will hammer away regardless. Is this really what people think? What are the ethics of aid climbing? Months ago in a discussion with “W” regarding the bolting of an aid climb (which he was against) I asked whether he would not nail a climb if he could imagine someone climbing it cleanly. He did not answer that question but did say something to the effect that some of my questions were “difficult.” Not too long ago in a thread regarding Town Crier, I asked Lambone this question about aid hammering ethics: “As far as fixed gear: what if removing all the fixed gear made the route impossible to climb clean. What if it changed the rating to C5 [Town Crier is C2 currently]? Does the original rating of the route have any implication on the nature of the fixed gear that is acceptable?” Should ethics guiding our actions, at least if we want them to produce tangible results here in the real world, be based on pie in the sky notions of how people should act in a “sinless” world or as we know them to act in the real world? Fern – I can’t imagine wanted to smack down someone in the situation you describe. As far as it being “my” route” Not even close! In fact the achievement itself is all in the doing. After aiding it I have already sussed out that it is a possibility for me to free it, so in a real sense all the “achievement” is is the product of climbing more than I have been and gym time. Hardly something to be proud of. The enjoyable thing for me is the process. I guess it is obvious I am bored at work thinking of going back to the Valley in the Fall! PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Peter, Although it'd be nice if everyone lived and climbed by some standard code of ethics, the reality is that will never happen. I believe that my answer to your question is yes, most people will continue to nail regardless of whether the route has been free climbed or not. Is the route in a guide book? If so, people will bring heads, get to the spot wher you removed them, and replace them. Regardless of what we'd like to believe is ethical aid climbing, this will happen. Most of the climbers will probly not even know that the route has been free climbed. And most of those who do probly won't care. That is just my opinion, not that I wouldn't respect that it has been free'd, but that most people won't. Take the Shield for example. It has been climbed clean, yet most parties that climb it continue to nail (myself included). People have there own reasons to justify this, point is that it still happens. Anyway, I wouldn't feel guilty about making the climb not an option for many, because most of those many will do it anyway. I'm sure others will disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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