Foreign Policy Question

[sexual_chocolate]

 

My point was simple. You (the average liberal sitting on your ass and having sat on your ass watching television for the past year are a poor judge of what is going on in the middle east, PERIOD!) You can comment all you want. My point is that whatever you may post is often tainted, twisted, and way off track. Like most of what you have surmised in each of your postings including the last one. Most of what I read here is all the same spoonfed mindless gibberish that I have come to expect from the liberal minded folks of sunless Washington. Did SADD affect all of your minds so permanently? Or maybe it just turned your spines to jelly?

 

Second, for the millionth time since you are only paying attention whenever you feel like it on these political threads. I am not a soldier. I am not a mindless drone. I am the tyranny of evil men. I have fully elaborated my understandings of this war in other threads. In short here it is. Oil, money, power. We have it. They want it. People like you (the weak) want to give it away so our children and grandchildren can live in a disadvantaged future. Fuck that and fuck all noble ideals that sell us out. I for one am not going to give away everything previous generations have strived to provide for us in this country because it's socially cool and it's been programmed into your little liberal minds that *we* are somehow always wrong and *they* are right.

 

Do you really fucking believe that I don't have access to every piece of information you have? Of course I do because the ONLY info you have is the same info I can read every day online, in a newspaper, or watch on TV. DO YOU HAVE THE SAME INFORMATION THAT I HAVE? The kind you get from living in Iraq day in and day out? It's called living the current situation. Have you been 10 feet from Donald Rumsfeld in the last month? Or is the closest you have been 10 feet from your TV? Catch my drift her bud?

 

How would you know that anyone in Iraq with even an inkling of distrust in the current administration are going mad as you put it? Have you been there? Have you been to Vietnam? Did you serve in Korea? WW2, WW1 or any service whatsoever to your country regardless of whether you agreed with it or not? I HIGHLY DOUBT IT.

 

Opinion polls are not indicating any such thing as the Iraqi's want us to leave. On the contrary. They are scared shitless we will leave. I will point out for you that sovereignty returns to the Iraqi's in less that 4 months. They signed a constitution the other day. You know how I know that? I was there. I had to sit thru hours and endless hours of negotiations getting few hours of sleep a night over 7000 miles away from my home while you probably slept like a baby safe and sound next to your wife with your kids in the other room. Hey, that must be rough. What should I do today since my life is so rough? I'll rag some dude on CC.com who has been to Iraq with my bullshit rhethoric! YEAH

 

So, in your business are you always able to pinpoint every X-Factor immediately? Are you able to predict them beforehand? Are you able to solve each and every problem with the utmost efficiency? Yeah, I didn't think so. So how in the world can whole nations plan for and predict and immediately fix every problem that arises? We are talking about nation building almost from scratch with three distinct factions at work here (Shiite, Shia, Kurd). There are alot of moving parts at work here, and there are certainly elements that would like to see us fail. As far as I am concerned they already kicked your ass because you are, were, and will continue to play into their hands with your worry wart attitude.

 

You know the quickest way to bring our boys home and get this shit over with? Since you SEEM to be so concerned. Give em 110% of your support, quit talking shit and meelie mouthing at fuckhead peace rallies, hang a flag over your house, and have some pride in where you come from. Quit being afraid of what the world thinks about us and quit worrying about some other mans son being killed in combat. it's a big boy arena and big boy rules apply. I've been shot at, mortared, rocketed, driven past horrific tragedies and basically had to deal with all the shit. What do you REALLY care? You remind me of that guy in Forrest Gump that beats up Jenny because he's so damned stressed about Nixon and war in Vietnam as he rides the hippy bus to protest parties with his fraudulent agenda.

 

Hey here's a good idea stud. Spit on a Marine Corp Lance Corporal to protest the war and Bush. See what kind of response that gets ya.

 

 

I feel like a fool for having even gotten into this with you.

 

You don't address a single point; you're an emotive nutcase who lets emotions rule your thinking; you're violent, fully believing in the old adage that might makes right;

 

in other words, I'm done arguing with you! Have fun in Iraq.

[tele_nut]

I think I addressed your points just fine. Did you want me to do a line for line response?

 

The violence witll continue even after we leave. We will not be leaving for a long time. The puppet regime members are actually some of the finer minds in Iraq. Almost every one is an experienced statesmen and has a doctorate of some sort. There will eventually be elections. I don't think the original members who signed the Declaration of Independence were elected either.

 

There is plenty of factual information on the web. I posted the CPA website here before which has a daily report of every school we rebuild, every road we fix, every electrical line we restore, every water main we replace, every mouth we need, every child we treat with medicines, etc, etc, etc. There is plenty of good being done there, but you choose to see what you want to see.

 

ON ANOTHER NOTE:

 

You SHOULD feel like a fool because you are one. I thought that when you first came on this site, and I think that now to this day. You're a self righteous mouth with a narrow point of view and a judgemental tone. You're not fit to stand in the same space as me. Good riddance.

[arlen]

You're a self righteous mouth with a narrow point of view and a judgemental tone. You're not fit to stand in the same space as me.

 

[scrambler]

Progress in some areas, improvement required in others:

 

Better and worse: a progress report on Iraq

 

excerpts--

Phone services, basic sewage, electricity, and oil production have all improved to near prewar conditions. A nationwide poll found that 70 percent of Iraqis say their lives are going well since the US invasion.

 

If the US were issued a report card on its efforts in Iraq, it would get high marks in basic reconstruction (my emphasis). But in other critical subjects - security, religious and ethnic stability, employment, and building local democratic institutions - it would take home failing grades.

 

 

--

I gotta say in terms of reconstruction, the CPA deserves kudos though it still looks like there's a lot of work required to be done. As far as protests against American occupation, under the regime of Saddam Hussein, demonstrations were suppressed and now the Iraqis have been given the freedom to complain (kind of like Glasnost was for the former Soviet Union). It seems a painful transition but one that could lead to very positive results for the Iraqis although the real possibility of civil war exists.

 

I disagreed with the 'rush to war' but not against the toppling of Saddam Hussein. Though one could argue that his presence provided some stability, that stability was achieved at a high cost to his people.

 

A successful transition to a legitimate Iraqi government that is not founded on fear but rather on humanitarian ideals would be the best situation. I somewhat doubt this, instead I suspect the government will be strongly influenced by religious concerns. How will the Iraqis handle all this newfound freedom? Will they become degenerate as seen in the eyes of the religious leaders and will the religious community seek to impose control?

 

I think the sticking point is that the success of this 'venture' is so closely tied with Bush's success that we discuss this issue with regard to the political views we hold of the current administration. So, basically our political views contaminate an objective assessment.

 

Now, I'm primarily parroting the media line with what I know about the situation but I doubt that someone's presence alone in that country will allow him to have the only valid grasp of the current state and future course of that country. An entity would have to have access to multiple points of observation as it evolves to grasp an objective generalized view of the country. I would think that a person in one area of the country (with the exception of Paul Bremer) would have a very subjective view of conditions.

[klenke]

I think the sticking point is that the success of this 'venture' is so closely tied with Bush's success that we discuss this issue with regard to the political views we hold of the current administration. So, basically our political views contaminate an objective assessment.

Exactly!

 

Such is the probability of this that, if Gore had won the last election and 9/11 happened in his term, and had he decided to go to war (AND been backed by Congress to do so) against Iraq, the discussions being played out on this site would be:

A) The liberal democrats would be for the war in Iraq and for the President who set it in motion

B) The conservative republicans would be against the war and the President who set it in motion.

So it's not really about the war itself, but who started the war.

[scrambler]

Yes, I generally agree, though my main contention is with the 'rush to war'. Perhaps if there hadn't been a rush to war then a war would not actually have resulted. That doesn't h/e preclude the toppling of Saddam by other means. Though it seems that a military occupation is probably the better of the options to maintain control in his absence.

 

--correction--replace Saddam with Baathist Party

Edited March 22, 2004 by scrambler

[AlpineK]

Tele,

 

I believe that someone shouldn't give a soldier orders or comment on military strategy without a more indepth understanding of the situations soldier(s) may face, however I think all American citizens have a responsibility to make political decisions that effect soldiers.

 

In the case of Iraq our present administration grossly exagerated the case for weapons of mass distruction (there are none) and our administration also exagerated the case for forgein terrorists in Iraq. Like it or not those were the reasons put forward for war.

 

Saddam was a bad person, but there are many bad leaders that fuck over their countries. I don't see the US doing anything about them. For example why the hell don't we take out Saudi Arabia. They're really fucked and that's where Osama and most of the 9/11 folks came from.

 

We have a bad ass military but we still need to have support from the rest of the world. We had support for Gulf war 1, and nobody said much when we went into Afganistan, but we had no support for going into Iraq.

 

Our current administration makes a decision and then finds the facts it likes to back up the decision they already made. As far as I'm concerned that is the worst way to make any kind of decision let alone a decision that costs American lives.

 

Real Americans will vote losers like GW out of office this year.

[tele_nut]

I doubt that someone's presence alone in that country will allow him to have the only valid grasp of the current state and future course of that country. An entity would have to have access to multiple points of observation as it evolves to grasp an objective generalized view of the country. I would think that a person in one area of the country (with the exception of Paul Bremer) would have a very subjective view of conditions.

 

I am member of the close protection detail for Ambassador Bremer. I go everywhere he goes when I am in country. My days are 20 hour days working to protect The Machine. He is someone worth admiration. I have never seen anyone work harder to succeed. This is part of the reason I am able to get so close to many of the issues and personalities involved in Iraq and I guess why I have such an upbeat attitude overall. I did not mean to imply that my point of view is the all seeing eye by any means. I think my original point was that for the average European, American, Canadian the situation from the media looks very bleak when it is NOT. It is hopeful, and there are brave people working hard to make a better future for these people we owe nothing to other than to do our best at this point to give them a future. Kuwait is now an amazing place. Iraq can be too.

 

I have to agree with several things said in the last few posts. I did not support the rush to war either, and I never believed the stated reasons for going. What I came to understand was the geo-political theory underlying the war and found that it made sense to me. I am a pragmatist by nature.

 

I empathize with those people who feel sleighted by the false pretenses we went in under, and I understand that it is some peoples nature to abhor violence, war, hegonomy, jingoism. For others that is a natural state. Once again it is the beauty of this country that we live in that we are free to perceive our reality the way that we see fit. I suffered for 8 years under an administration and a president I could not stand. I felt like our nation went a little further down the road of complete moral breakdown. Now we have the complete opposite and some folks are disgruntled. That's the way the cookie crumbles. If Kerry makes it in I feel that we may make progress in some areas (health care-taxes-domestic concerns) and return to bungling in others(foreign policy-foreign appeasement).

 

Whoever becomes president I hope that they will make our lives better. I am not really a party man either way, but I was damned glad to see Clinton gone. I was too young to understand what a complete failure Carter was, but I remember sitting in gas lines, and feeling liberated when Reagan took office. At least the hostages got to come home because Iran KNEW they were about to get NUKED. I do see this current administration as having an agenda.

 

Iraq is going to be an issue for a long time to come and I would expect Iraq to be a military base for a long time to come much the same way Saudi used to be. I think you have to see how that all fits into place. It's like Risk. You take some important countries and you fortify them against hostile takeover because if you don't you're going to lose the whole board eventually.

 

I appreciate every one else getting into the discussion and not letting it end on a sour note. Thanks.

[sexual_chocolate]

A nationwide poll found that 70 percent of Iraqis say their lives are going well since the US invasion.

 

 

Ouch. Let's keep our facts straight, ok? From your own article:

 

"Conducted by Oxford Research International and commissioned by a group of broadcasters, the poll found that 56 percent of Iraqis said their lives were somewhat or much better since Saddam Hussein was ousted." (Italics added for emphasis.)

 

Unfortunately, there is a lot of room between "somewhat" better and "much better", so specificity is certainly lacking.

 

And of course, no information is given as to where the polls were taken; what the questions were; who was interviewed; percentage of Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds comprising the poll; etc etc.

 

I have heard different results from different polls, so I think these must be taken with a grain of salt.

 

And as much as I'd like to hope that things are better for the average Iraqi (which is highly questionable and even doubtful), this would do nothing to mitigate the atrocities committed by the US administration: all the lies, the code of conduct of the neo-cons (deceit of the masses is ok for policy aims), the 10,000+ Iraqi civilians dead, the 600 US soldiers gone forever, the furthering of fanaticism, etc. etc. etc.

[scrambler]

The major point of the article involves a look at various benchmarks necessary to assess the progress of reconstruction and hopefully the eventual normalization of the country. Progress has been measured in some indicators but much work remains to be done.

 

The excerpt I quoted was taken directly from the article (2nd paragraph). Maybe it's a typo or perhaps the 70% relates to the graph shown at the bottom of the article. One of these graphs shows that nearly 70% of Iraqis polled expect the situation to be better one year from now.

 

In any event, whether the number is 56% or 70%, the overall favorable sentiment of the Iraqis is probably a reflection of the successes of the CPA and as such, the CPA deserves recognition for a difficult job as it seeks to improve the indicators. The problem, as I see it, is that there are forces that are seeking to create chaos out of the stability the CPA is intent on fostering. Only time will tell.

 

And as much as I'd like to hope that things are better for the average Iraqi (which is highly questionable and even doubtful), this would do nothing to mitigate the atrocities committed by the US administration: all the lies, the code of conduct of the neo-cons (deceit of the masses is ok for policy aims), the 10,000+ Iraqi civilians dead, the 600 US soldiers gone forever, the furthering of fanaticism, etc. etc. etc.

You're talking about a lot of things here, a lot of issues. If you focus on the reconstruction effort and the CPA's role in that effort, then things seem clearer with respect to the direction this thread has drifted. I think you only want to harp on the negative aspects of the situation, whether any of it is true or not, because you seem to have a political vendetta.

 

Let me just tell you that there is a cold calculus of human life, the same calculus we used to justify the first use of nuclear weapons in order to save an untold number of American lives. That's realpolitik. The projection of American military power is necessary at times, and I'm not talking about individual lives here, I'm talking about this entity called America, this historical force. I don't believe in the indiscriminate use of military power but its wise use is a tremendous force in shaping the world as it will be.

 

Maybe I have a false impression of you but your attitude is one that would consign America to the dustbin of history. Far from it. We are shaping the world in historic events.

-----

"Fortune favors the brave. ...Being a woman, she favors young men, because they are less circumspect and more ardent, and because they command her with greater audacity."

--N. Machiavelli

This ability--call it vigor, prowness, bravery, pride, courage, strength--was what Machiavelli called virtu (from the Latin, virtus, itself from vir, man). In other words, virtu describes the qualities desirable in a man which includes a certain ruthlessness.

 

In his opinion, not only individuals but nations could possess virtu. Having it did not guarantee success; but without it failure was certain, since the only alternative involves depending purely on Fortune. "Therefore the only sound, sure and enduring methods of defence are those based on your own virtu."

 

"Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness

has genius, power and magic in it." --Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

[sexual_chocolate]

Machiavelli was a friggin' manipulative Medici ass-kisser!

 

He's your guiding light? Please please please dear sir: reconsider....

[j_b]

Progress in some areas, improvement required in others:

 

Better and worse: a progress report on Iraq

 

excerpts--

Phone services, basic sewage, electricity, and oil production have all improved to near prewar conditions. A nationwide poll found that 70 percent of Iraqis say their lives are going well since the US invasion.

 

"Andy Bearpark, the soft-spoken Briton in charge of the US-led coalition's reconstruction efforts in Iraq, was detailing an impressive list of achievements Wednesday morning."

 

just imagine, he is soft-spoken too!

 

at a time when it is fashionable for part of the press to make amends for the fact they bought the administration's "facts" hook, line and sinker in the build up to war, the christian science monitor believes it is ok to continue with the fine tradition of uncritically spewing what it is fed by occupation authorities (though the spokeperson was soft-spoken ).

 

and the data going in those plots is from DoD.

 

i am not saying none of it is true, but a little circumspection is in order considering the chronic lack of credibility emanating from this administration.

 

how does one conduct a representative poll in iraq?

[scrambler]

Machiavelli was a good republican.