jaee Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Looking for a little debate on the following: Should everyone on a BC ski trip, regardless of group size, carry a shovel and probe in avalanche terrain? This assumes everyone is already beeping. Also assume it's a big group, say 6-8 people. Pros: Always have more than enough shovels Cons: Extra group gear adds up, especially on multi-day trips. Please discuss Quote
thelawgoddess Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 i would say yes. shovels and probes are really not that heavy and you never know who's gonna get buried and who's gonna be nearby. doesn't matter how long your trip is! Quote
marylou Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Good question Jaee. So, now if you were the one who got caught in an avalanche, how many people would you want to have looking for you? Quote
jaee Posted March 1, 2004 Author Posted March 1, 2004 Having run rescue scenarios with up to 12 people on the rescue team I'd say that 2 beacons & 2 shovels is more than enough unless there's more than 2 victims. Even so, more beacons don't make searches go faster. More shovels can, but most recoveries still seem to happen somewhat serially even with plenty of personnel. Next time you're practicing searching for a beacon see if having 3 people dig the hole at the same time is faster than one. Quote
thelawgoddess Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 you never know how many victims there will be. and who says you need three people digging at the same time? just because you have a shovel doesn't mean you HAVE to use it. wouldn't it suck if the 2 people that have your 2 shovels are the ones that got buried? why risk it? honestly ... if people show up to go bc with me and don't have their shit, they can go back and get it or go without me. Quote
jaee Posted March 2, 2004 Author Posted March 2, 2004 I wouldn't start to leave shovels behind until after we hit 4 or more. I did say a group size of 6-8 in the previous post. I'd also always have shovels & probes for at least 1/2 the people. Quote
cj001f Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 jaee- Most of what you said of rescue dynamics is true. You have neglected the distribution of shovels/probes throughout the party, in your calculations. As the TLG said - what if the person(s) with the shovel is buried? Unless we're talking about Mazama sized groups, scratch that, even if you are talking about Mazama sized groups, it's more than possible for a majority of the group to get buried (last years BC accidents!) Quote
jaee Posted March 2, 2004 Author Posted March 2, 2004 Guess that settles that. 3 folks at CC.com for, none against. Looks like everyone is carrying shovels & probes from now on. Current Mazama policy only requires at least 2 shovels & probes be provided on climbs. Usually more shovels show up with climbers. The problem with regulating this sort of thing is that if you say "everyone needs a shovel" on a climb and someone forgets their shovel, you have to cancel the climb or you're negligent. So, we try to avoid specific guidelines or hard numbers. It's also the ski vs. climb mentality. I know most climbers don't carry probes or even beacons most of the time. Most skiers do. Kind of a double standard, don't you think? Quote
mattp Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 jaee - It may not be as much of a double standard as you think. When there is new snow or deep snow, I generally opt for skiing over climbing. This is most of the time when the avalanche hazard is rated "moderate" or above. For winter technical climbing, I usually look for a period of time where the snow is set up and the avalanche hazard is minimal. Further, the terrain I want to ski is almost exclusively prime avalanche terrain. Quote
iain Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 Climbers tend to look for ridge lines or consolidated areas for routes, terrain that is usually safer in terms of avalanche hazard. Generally they like to avoid wallowing on 30-40 powder bowls. They also are looking at slopes from a bottom-up perspective, while skiers are looking top-down, often at a roll-over. Skiers often do not follow their skin track down, so do not have first-hand experience with the slope that day. There are a number of factors that increase the risk for skiers in general. That's not to say there is plenty of risk for climbers, as the recent avalanche fatalities up on Mt. Wilson demonstrate. There is also a strong psychological component of skiing that can get people overly-excited to hit a slope that might be marginally safe. This can come from the euphoria of skiing, which can cause skiers to abandon rational thought in order to get more powder. It's amazing how different people behave after skiing a short section of really good snow. Quote
cj001f Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 mattp & iain presented a much better case than I will. My reasoning why climber's don't is: If it's steep/exposed enough for you to rope up - what are the odds your going to survive an avalanche on that slope? Not good.... Quote
thelawgoddess Posted March 4, 2004 Posted March 4, 2004 The problem with regulating this sort of thing is that if you say "everyone needs a shovel" on a climb and someone forgets their shovel, you have to cancel the climb or you're negligent. if you're running an outfit, why don't you just make sure you have extras in your van or office and whoever forgets theirs (or doesn't have them to begin with) can rent/borrow from you? Quote
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