Self-Belay, Old School Style

[Billygoat]

So, in Alpinist 5 it is discussed that Renato Casarotto, in the early '70s, "...put together a rudimentary self-belaying system that was laborious in the maneuvers, but it worked."

 

Can anyone speculate on what that might have looked like?

 

How does one self-belay on lead w/o a Soloist device or death modified Gri-Gri?

 

 

[chris]

Clove hitch on locking biner. Backed up with the end tied in. No joke. This is how I learned aid-solo in the Valley, and I still use it unless I can borrow a friends Soloist. Its a pain in the ass to move, but it works fine.

[Billygoat]

Thanks MF! I was wondering whether a clove hitch could take the strain of a fall. Have you actually fallen on this? Hard? Do you think a munter would work as well?

[EWolfe]

I have fallen on the clove, solo. Worked great, but I had back-up loops clipped to harness, just in case.

 

I have yet to fall on my soloist, I trust the mechanics less.

[Billygoat]

Ooops, bag the munter, the ropes have to go in the same direction to apply friction.

 

How did you have the back up loops tied in?

 

So the clove is loose to feed rope but will tighten when loaded, right. How hard is it to feed?

 

[mattp]

In the early '70's, I bet, he didn't have either a soloist or a "death modified Gris-Gris."

 

I'm sure you will get all kinds of good advice here, and you can read a half dozen "tech tips" from the magazines or some latest John Long book, and I could be completely missing out on the latest "very cool" system, but I think the basic concepts are very simple:

(1) set a very secure anchor, and tie the end to it, then start climbing with a rope tied to that very secure anchor and lead out on a figure eight knot or something else (maybe a gizmo backed up with an eight or some wil use a clove hitch), with more than enough "extra" there to get you past the next place you are sure you will be able to stop and place pro and hang around and reset your setup.

(2) Place at least as many, and probably more, intermediate anchors (pro) as you would when being belayed. Think about it and read the books, then decide whether you want to run your rope through those anchors or actually tie to each one (comment: personally, I am not so concerned about "fall factors" as I am about some kind of system failure; I tie directly to each one).

(3) At each intermediate rest, re-tie your back-up knot and check your self belay device if you are using one. Continue.

(4) Repeat. Climb to the top of the pitch. (5) Set a very good anchor.

(6) Rappel and clean.

(7) Jumar or climb back up, using a self-belay and a back-up.

 

It is "laborious" because you have to mess around with the knots several times during every pitch, and you have to rappel and re-climb each pitch. I take "rudimentary" to mean that he didn't have gizmo's, only ropes and knots and carabiners (I could be WAY wrong in this interpretation).

 

If you want to head out climbing with only yourself as the belayer, be prepared to have to think on your feet, and be prepared to get scared. But in my opnion, it is a good idea to keep the complexities to a minium -- that way when you get scared you at least know that you are tied to something solid somewhere - with few links in the chain betweeen you and that something. Note too: the concept of the "self-belay" is best employed if you are rock climbing in a setting where you can actually get a good anchor before you lead from the belay.

 

Do you folks who go climbing at Index when it is rainy and self-belay - you know who you are - have more refinement to add here? Do you perhaps do it completely differently?

[willstrickland]

I've taken 15 footers on a clove hitch a couple of times. A munter would not be a good idea, unless you want to die. Always tie in with a backup knot if you're gonna rope-solo aid.

 

Look in the Alpinist 5 in the article on Fitz Roy, there's a picture of Casaratto's "rack" that some other dudes found in '93 (Topher Donahue and Kennan Harvey). It was like a bunch of wooden blocks slung with cord. Wild.

 

How hard is it to feed the clove? It's a pain in the ass, but you can get it done with one hand if you have to. You end up feeding out a bunch of slack at once after a while because you're tired of messing with it after every aid placement.

[EWolfe]

Between good stances I would always pull up a couple of overhand loops and clip them to lockers on my harness, the, as you move through crux, you can drop loops with one hand, and run the clove. Next stance , re-org.

[Billygoat]

Thanks much Matt

 

One question: How does tying into each piece, rather than just running the rope thru, reduce your exposure to system failure? Unless you mean the bottom anchor failing.

[willstrickland]

Never tried the clove for self-belayed free climbing, except occasional short sections of an aid climb. Can't imagine it would be much fun...but that's why I have a Silent Partner...which is a bit of a pain in it's own way.

[mattp]

By the way, I agree with Strickland - a clove hitch would be a better call than a Muenter. And for got's sake, if you use a Muenter or a belay device, please use a back-up knot (it might even be a good idea if you use a clove hitch). But as I said already, I like the figure eight. However, there are plusses and minuses to using a belay device, a semi-sliding knot, or an unmoving one -- just as there are when deciding whether to thread or actually tie to intermediate ancors. Whatever you do, the key is to do what make YOU comfortable. I've done first ascents (unkonwon terrain) on what was (for me) challenging terrain this way. The system can work if you make it yours.

[willstrickland]

One question: How does tying into each piece, rather than just running the rope thru, reduce your exposure to system failure? Unless you mean the bottom anchor failing.

 

He means the bottom piece pulling since it will be an upward pull.

[Billygoat]

Yeah Will, I love that rack. Definitely affordable! I wonder how much those wood wedges could hold if welded in there?!

 

So E, how do the loops hold and shorten your fall and yet be easily paid out with one hand? I am having trouble visualizing this.

 

Thanks

[EWolfe]

Those things are spendy! Wren is tha bomb, tho.

 

I have fallen both on aid and free with the clove. Free, it's o.k. if you are attentive to keeping the knot loose as you move (by loops or backpack feed).

[Billygoat]

yeah guys thanks! The munter is totally baked and if you look above, I corrected myself right after I posted it . Just had too much wine with dinner and didn't think before I typed

 

Great response! Cheers

[EWolfe]

Yeah Will, I love that rack. Definitely affordable! I wonder how much those wood wedges could hold if welded in there?!

 

So E, how do the loops hold and shorten your fall and yet be easily paid out with one hand? I am having trouble visualizing this.

 

Thanks

 

Minimal rope pull on either end of the rope is key to a functional clove hitch.

 

The loops minimize ropeweight from feed end, and serve as backup in case of a failure during fall.

[Billygoat]

I have mostly top rope soloed with a Rocker. I only once lead by anchoring the bottom but only for very short lengths of rope cause I was too unsure to run it out. Matt's advice resonates soundly: Think it through, keep it simple, have a clear head, make it your own.

[Billygoat]

AHHH, hhhhmmmmmm good.

[Dru]

if you read "A Soldier of the Great War" by Daniel Halperin, which is partly about WW1 alpine battles in the Dolomites, once you get past the anachronisms there is a great solo self belay setup described.

[mattp]

RE: "system failure" and tieing to each piece

If you tie directly into each piece, you guard against the bottom anchor failing as well as the possiblity that you drop a rock onto your belay rope and damage it somewhere between you and the belay. It also limits the distance that you will fall more than simply running the rope through all your pieces. (If you search past threads you will see that I generally fear hitting ledges, blocks and other things during my fall more than I fear the "short catch" of the rope - and I recognize that this fear may not be rational for overhanging terrain but I think it is rational for sub-vertical terrain despite the arguments of some others on this site, and I also should say that I have mostly used "my" system in alpine rock climbing rather than wall climbs or crag outings.) If you tie to every piece, it also means that if you decide to bail, your high piece is more directly backed up by the one below it while you figure out what you are going to do. I like this system because, when soloing, I do not have a partner who can react and bail me out if I make a mistake or change my mind on lead --- it just feels more secure to me. It does sacrifice the dynamic characteristics of the rope in the event of a leader fall.

[Billygoat]

Ask Joe Simpson about sudden de-cellerization injuries, i.e. striking objects on rapid descent.

 

I intend on using this in less than vertical terrain... for now

[lancegranite]

Its ok to tie off short in the right places...

first of all, set your anchors upward pull by tieing off short to the first BOMBER piece. Equalize the load by allowing just enough slack to keep the biners set for upward pull with a little play.

(this way allows for the belay and the first good piece to act in concert to absorb the load.)

Tieing off short dramatically increases the dynamic loads the system sees when you fall.

Tieing the rope into every piece does more harm than good, once or twice in a pitch, OK. Any more, and you are going to be taking some hard falls.

Short form:

More rope out....OK.

Less rope out.....Notsogood.

[fern]

For freeclimb rope soloing an alternative to any sort of clove hitch or device is to essentially pre-tie all your backup knots in 10' loops and stack them in order on your harness. As you run out of slack in each loop you drop it off you harness, there is the option of clipping the fig-8 into intermediate pro or just leaving it or untieing it. I am skimming many details here. I am sure someone clever could search the googlenews archives to find the rec.climbing post I read about this.

[Hal_Burton]

I'd second lance's observation of the more rope out the better. I used to tie into pieces more frequently, but later I came to realise that you're protecting that last piece by giving it more rope to absorb the fall, making it less likely that it, or subsequent pieces below it, will rip. I know the mind (or is it the sphincter talking?) sez "I feel really secure tied short to this RP", but a minor fall could turn long when that piece goes. To tie in often also makes it a pain when cleaning on jugs. A lot more work when climbing and cleaning. As if you need any more work when solo roped climbing.

 

I've used a clove a bunch. Taken a couple 20-25 footers on them. When using the clove I use two biners. This is redundant, and it makes the knot easier to feed. I've never used any back up besides tying into the end of the rope.

I've moved onto a Solo-Aid, which is only slightly easier to feed.

 

An early self belay technique was a belay plate with a prussik on the brake strand. Not sure how long that lasted or if anyone bit it because of it, but it's failing was that the prussick would melt and down you go.

[Jedi]

I never tried tieing off to each piece.

 

I have used the clove hitch and the solo aid. THe solo aid definitly works better than the clove hitch. Once, while using the clove hitch, I thought I had paid out enough rope to free 3 or 4 moves. I was wrong. The clove hitch was too tight to free up any more rope and i had come up short on rope at a mantle. The 1st free move was off a talon hook. I was not comfortable reversing the other free moves back to the Talon. I struggled for a while until I peeled. The clove did hold that fall nicely. I was a long one because the beak & a RURP under the talon ripped.

Jedi