School Bust

[scott_harpell]

Hardcore cops pullin guns on innocent kiddies... great video!

[Mtguide]

Sounds like not all the kids were actually so innocent--the K9 drug sniffer reacted to about a dozen backpacks & located "residue".Drawn pistols does seem a bit much-but I guess ya never know when some little 90 lb girl might be packin' heat,nunchuks,ninja stars,etc.

[scott_harpell]

Mtguide said:

Sounds like not all the kids were actually so innocent--the K9 drug sniffer reacted to about a dozen backpacks & located "residue".Drawn pistols does seem a bit much-but I guess ya never know when some little 90 lb girl might be packin' heat,nunchuks,ninja stars,etc.

 

too bad they didn't find any chronic tho' pointed ll dem gun for no reason.

[whirlwind]

fuck thats how inecent people get shot, fuckin dumb shits all over a little bit of homegrown. just fucking plain stupid. i could see if it was like cocaine or some shit but still dosn't make the gun drawn thing ok

[Scott_J]

How many of you work with ass hole students? If some mother fucker of a piece of shit wanna be pulls a gun on me they better be ready to pull the fucking trigger! 'Cause if they don't I will fucking use it on them on the way to the fucking dirt.

I work with "kids" that are in the fuckin big house and some that are out. The ones in the big house are the safest as you are part of the team that wands them on the way in, but its in the public sector that you have to wary. It’s a very small percentage but you have to be careful. If you disagree that is your prerogative and its mine to act and feel the way I do. If it smells like a duck, walks like a duck, looks like a duck it’s probably a duck.

In other words if you are doing something that is illegal take it like a man or a woman. And all you GOD DAMN FUCKING BLEEDING HEARTS give it a fucking rest. If the bleeding hearts would of backed off years ago the problems we have in this society today might be a little less.

[scrambler]

sisu_suomi said:

How many of you work with ass hole students? If some mother fucker of a piece of shit wanna be pulls a gun on me they better be ready to pull the fucking trigger! 'Cause if they don't I will fucking use it on them on the way to the fucking dirt.

I work with "kids" that are in the fuckin big house and some that are out. The ones in the big house are the safest as you are part of the team that wands them on the way in, but its in the public sector that you have to wary. It’s a very small percentage but you have to be careful. If you disagree that is your prerogative and its mine to act and feel the way I do. If it smells like a duck, walks like a duck, looks like a duck it’s probably a duck.

 

Sisu, sounds like you've been in the trenches. What was it I heard someone say, "Never turn your backs on the muthafuckers!"

 

sisu_suomi said:

In other words if you are doing something that is illegal take it like a man or a woman.

 

Yeah, even if you are a teenager your punishment will be meted out as if you're an adult. Let the punishment fit the crime. There will be no age discrimination with respect to punishment. You will learn to fear and through that fear, you will respect authority. Paraphrase of a Biblical passage: The fear of authority is the beginning of wisdom.

 

sisu_suomi said:

And all you GOD DAMN FUCKING BLEEDING HEARTS give it a fucking rest. If the bleeding hearts would of backed off years ago the problems we have in this society today might be a little less.

 

The perennial problem: rebellious teenagers

Actually, I believe this will always be a problem regardless of which political agenda is pursued.

 

There are two other problems that can be extracted: the availability of guns and the presence of drug use. You could approach these problems with a philosophical attitude, e.g., yours that lax attitudes ('do your own thing') are responsible for disrespect and breakdown of authority. The misuse of guns and drugs are a symptom of these lax attitudes.

 

Maybe though, what you are seeing is actually a need to escape through drug usage and breaking the law (society's conventions). This need to escape is caused by the dawning realization that the kids see a bleak future for themselves.

 

Condone it? No. Solution? No. Though I suppose if you wanted to look at the problem through the Republican-Democratic polarity, it breaks down into individual responsibility vs. system failure, i.e., Repub-'it's the individual's fault; Dems-'the system is flawed. Seems the centrist solution of tweaking both the system and encouraging individual responsibility may be most effective though the pendulum effect (alternating right and left) is how the dynamic societal process is expressed.

 

[E-rock]

Actually, we've solved the problem, just wait about 8 more years. All the little kiddies today are on mood altering meds. By they time they're in high-school, they'll be lobotomized automotons.

[scrambler]

Oh right. Better living through chemistry.

[Scott_J]

You know though I have very few problems with the ass holes. I tell them what I want and also tell them that if they do what I want. This will be good when they have to see the Man. I'll be there and tell the Man that they have been doing everything in class that I have asked. That carries some weight b/4 sentencing.

[Mtguide]

sisu_suomi said:

You know though I have very few problems with the ass holes. I tell them what I want and also tell them that if they do what I want. This will be good when they have to see the Man. I'll be there and tell the Man that they have been doing everything in class that I have asked. That carries some weight b/4 sentencing.

 

That's what we call structure;some sort of framework is absolutely necessary,I completely agree.Where I feel the use of guns in this case went a bit over the line is that students in a regular high school,while carrying the potential for serious threat,are in a little different category from those in a reform school or other institution for young people who are known offenders.I've spent several seasons as a wilderness guide working with at-risk youth,and they are not innocent kids.They can be extremely dangerous,crafty and resourceful,and many of them carry a huge load of anger and depression.These are kids coming out of rehabs and lockups,lots of them with some pretty long and scary records.One of the most useful things I learned while doing this was to avoid increasing or exacerbating this generalized resentment;and that DOESN'T mean coddling or going easy in any way.The rules are the rules--and the consequences are real,swiftly and impartially applied.Never at any time were we permitted to use or carry firearms.I was allowed to carry plastic restraints,to be used only in the most serious extreme.The first season I did this,I found many,many parallels between my former experience of almost 13 years as a working cowboy and professional guide and packer,working with horses and mules,and working with these tough kids.I began to see unmistakeable similarities between rebellious,arrogant,stubborn kids,and untouched,walleyed,roman-nosed,scarrred-up 1400 lb range broncs and shifty mules with lightning hooves and teeth a-snappin'.Refusal behaviors,laying in wait watching for opportunities,misplacing blame,etc.,all just plain as day in these kids,just like a bunch of sullen mules or a spooky bronc with a far away look in his eye.Now, horses are a lot smarter than most people realize,and mules are goddamned smart;they are also extremely sensitive,and it will do you no damned good whatsoever to beat on them or abuse them;they'll take that to heart and be packin' that pain to use on your ass later.No, to get anywhere with intelligent animals,you have to use psychology,applied in very simple and concrete ways.One of the most basic principles of working with horses and mules is: make the right thing comfortable,and the wrong thing,UNcomfortable; not impossible,because that sets up resistance and fulminates resentment,which is gonna result in a horse fight.If that happens,believe me, nobody wins.You've lost an opportunity to gain the trust of the animal,and he's lost the chance to learn,besides having built some new barriers.That can take a lot of time and work to undo.Any of this sounding like teenagers yet?

The next step in this progression,as it takes hold,is to use comfort/discomfort in such a manner as to make it seem to the animal that,when they've done the right thing,they think it was their idea,not yours.We all ought to know by now that you really can't MAKE a horse,or another human being,do anything;you have to SHOW 'em,and make it obvious enough that they can figure it out on their own.But the minute they feel like you're trying to tell them what to do,you've lost it.Oh sure,you can coerce,draw guns,beat on them,etc.But what you've done is to kill the spirit of the animal,and the same goes for young people.Sound like any teenagers you know?What kind of lesson do the kids in that hallway REALLY take away,besides the fear of authority?Answer: the Man is indeed more powerful,but the Man is also an asshole who is as scared of us as we are of his guns.The Man therefore carries no true or REAL authority,because he is not the Master of himself,and has to hide behind the threat of violence; therefore, the Man is ,essentially,weak, and not to be respected.

Another set of basic principles we used to use is: Firmness,Gentleness,and Consistency.And the old-time cowboy and bronc snapper who told me this also said,if you can't be gentle,for god's sake don't leave out the other two.And then he added that it's one hell of a piss-poor horseman who doesn't have the self-control and genuine caring for the animal, to be gentle.As far as I'm concerned,much the same can be said for anyone whose job is working with young people(and by the way,in a truly enlightened society,isn't that the proper work of ALL adults?) who doesn't have the time,patience and self-mastery to listen,pay attention,read the signals,and with compassion,humor and good nature to fucking EARN the respect and authority required to truly teach and lead by example.

Besides being a horse breaker and trainer in the years I cowboyed,I also held a number of positions as a foreman and manager on ranches and pack outfits;and one of the most valuable lessons I learned was to never disrespect or underestimate anyone,especially in front of others,and to never ask anyone to do anything that you would not do yourself.All of the principles I've mentioned above hold true with men as well as horses--believe me,the LAST place you want to be,around a bunch of hard-bitten cowhands,is to be trying to tell them what to do,if you're not willing and able to do it yourself.I later worked my way through graduate school as a heavy construction carpenter/welder,and found the same to be true as a foreman on these jobs.You've got people's lives and safety in your hands-and so do you with a hall full of high school kids,facing drawn guns in the hands of a bunch of nervous cops.No,sorry;but I think,from what little information we have, it was way over the line.Unless the police had definite information and a warrant on a suspect to be detained,it was completely innappropriate;they were lucky nothing more serious happened.But my guess is,they haven't solved one goddamned thing;if they think they had problems now,just wait a while.Those kids will not forget the day that their Principal lost sight of what his title demands of him as a man, and as a teacher and leader of teachers.And the man or woman who follows in his stead,and the rest of the teachers as well,now have a much,much tougher job.

One thing about your post that disturbs me is how you refer to the kids you work with,at least the difficult ones(I'm assuming) as assholes.Ever wonder what they think of you?Might be mutual.If so,that's too bad,because to start with we're just people,with all our faults and imperfections.And that's the barrier that I feel will fall only to a way of teaching that begins from a standpoint of respect,high expectations,and no small measure of courage and wisdom on the part of the teacher.Might be useful to watch the movie Stand and Deliver,about the east L.A. high school math teacher who took a REALLY tough class of kids and won the national math exams with them;and this was in a TOUGH school,folks,east L.A. barrios,mon;no place tougher in the country--and I don't believe he ever pulled a heater on anyone to do it.

[Scott_J]

Last night I got the confirmation I was waiting for. An

Ex-student of mine was shot and killed with his counter part was engaged in a robbery. It was weird as I read the story a few months ago I figured it was Frank, but could not get confirmation. Last night I did. The other teacher and I spoke of Frank's home life, what there was. He had a con for a dad that was in and out of the Big House on a semi regular basis. Even in 8th grade, Matt and I figured Frank was heading for the Big House or the Box. Well, the SOB got the box. I believe he ended up with 3-44 mag rounds in his torso. Probably went out of the picture real quick. Like the old saying goes, "You fuck with the bull you get the horn". It's just too bad "we" didn't have enough of an influence on him.

 

[allthumbs]

Hey Sisu, you can say ‘stop’ or ‘alto’ or use any other word you think will work, but I’ve found that a large bore muzzle pointed at someone’s head is pretty much the universal language.