Jim Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 Well I would agree that Kosovo webpage is bogus. However, Blum's book on the CIA is refernced very well. And if you want to toss out that book - then try the others. But because you don't like the way something sounds is no argument. Again - try Chompsky's book - it's comprehensive and well referenced. Search the Washington Post site - they had an article about it, same with the NYTimes. So far I've heard nothing to dispute this, even from PP. If you get all your news from the Tube you're going to miss a lot. Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 i'm curious..what are other's sentiments for the UN...personally, i think it neds to be out, or at least have a major overhaul... it seems that its policies are mere suggestions and that it needs some serious weight behind it...one could say that the iraq conflict wouln't have happened (or couldn't have happened) without this weak UN and watered down policies... comments??? Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 i dont have a TV... i currently live in lithaunia... and i dont just accept books on mainstream media (which tends to be extremely liberal) suggestions. i will look into this book... but i am not just going to accept the infallibility of it based on some media conglomerate's endorsement... Quote
JGowans Posted April 10, 2003 Posted April 10, 2003 Hard to say Fence Sitter. I will say though that most of continental Europe is run by pseudo-intellectual liberals that have experienced the horrors of war first hand whilst growing up during WWII, and are probably more reluctant than members of other non-Euro nations to endorse war. Citizens of continental Europe generally consider themselves to have moved beyond threats of war and like to think of themselves as somewhat sophisticted and enlightened. I'm not saying that's the case and nor am I making any veiled remarks against U.S. politicians, I'm just pointing out my own observations. I'd say that that's where most European U.N. delegates are coming from. I think that there does indeed need to be an overhaul with respect to the U.N's willingness to show its teeth. However, this definitely does need to be carefully balanced with diplomacy. If they cold only have harnessed the U.S. zeal for war coupled with the Euro zeal for diplomacy, perhaps we could have come to a peaceful conclusion. I doubt it though. Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 so i have been reading about chomsky... who is affiliated with Milan Rai... who you may remember is a radical anit-war activist... so this might present a fair amount of bias... if you have a educated, (moderately) unbaised piece of work in which to cite... i would be more than glad to read it and consider your position... lemme know what you come up with... Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 j gowans- goven your example about the euro's seeing the efects of war... how would you explain the vast, vast majority of the ethnic albanians i know supporting the war? perhaps they knwo what a totalitarian ruler is capable of and would not wish it on their worst enemy? i think that is likely the case... Quote
JGowans Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 Fence_Sitter said: j gowans- goven your example about the euro's seeing the efects of war... how would you explain the vast, vast majority of the ethnic albanians i know supporting the war? perhaps they knwo what a totalitarian ruler is capable of and would not wish it on their worst enemy? i think that is likely the case... With all due respect FS, I wouldn't consider Albanians to be enlightened. That's one of the poorest nations in the world that hasn't had the luxury of 60 years to reflect on past mistakes. Not only that but their footie team is shite Quote
iain Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 gapertimmy said: link didn't that image itself become the subject of an internet argument here a year or two back? Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 i would also like a 'intellectual' piece, not to refer to the current president of the united states as 'shrubs.' i dont give a shit if you guys do it, (hell i even do) but if i am going to take this guy seriously as an intellectual, i would rather not hear epithets about people whom he is disagreeing with... it makes his arguments seem rather weak... Quote
Jim Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 Fence_Sitter said: i dont have a TV... i currently live in lithaunia... and i dont just accept books on mainstream media (which tends to be extremely liberal) suggestions. i will look into this book... but i am not just going to accept the infallibility of it based on some media conglomerate's endorsement... Glad to see that you will at least consider the idea by checking it out. You may also look at this which is even more recent. Out of the Ashes, The Resurrection of Saddam Hussein, 2000 If you think that CIA intervention is a good thing then that is an opinion. But the facts of this are pretty well documented. Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 j-gowans... do you know shit about albania? seriously... i have been there... it is ntothe shit hole that you might have seen in a national geographic in 1982... since then there has been a citizen rebellion and they are now in control of their government... i wasn't even talking about albanians though (at least citizenship wise) but rather ethnic albanians ( the ones that were persecuted)... so...read up bucko... Quote
Jim Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 Fence_Sitter said: so i have been reading about chomsky... who is affiliated with Milan Rai... who you may remember is a radical anit-war activist... so this might present a fair amount of bias... if you have a educated, (moderately) unbaised piece of work in which to cite... i would be more than glad to read it and consider your position... lemme know what you come up with... How about reading something. Again, if it's something you haven't heard of in the usual lame media, and it goes against your beliefs, well then it can't be true. Get informed, and form an opinion on the facts. Otherwise it's arm-waving. Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 jim- looking for references to the book...no way of finding it here ( in lithuania) but hoping to find mabe a online copy or at least a couple of reviews...thanks for the intrest... Quote
JGowans Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 Fence_Sitter said: j-gowans... do you know shit about albania? seriously... i have been there... it is ntothe shit hole that you might have seen in a national geographic in 1982... since then there has been a citizen rebellion and they are now in control of their government... i wasn't even talking about albanians though (at least citizenship wise) but rather ethnic albanians ( the ones that were persecuted)... so...read up bucko... FS, I'll stand by my statement. It IS one of the poorest nations in Europe. No question. Those poor people are more concerned with their own survival than the musings of western politicians. When I said that they weren't enlightened, I meant that enlightenment is the last thing on their minds. That's for folks who have the luxury to contemplate such things. Here's a statement from your own CIA site: "In 1990 Albania ended 44 years of xenophobic communist rule and established a multiparty democracy. The transition has proven difficult as corrupt governments have tried to deal with high unemployment, a dilapidated infrastructure, widespread gangsterism, and disruptive political opponents. International observers judged local elections in 2001 to be acceptable and a step toward democratic development, but identified serious deficiencies which should be addressed through reforms in the Albanian electoral code." Btw, FS, you may be forgetting that I am a Euro myself and you're not the only one that's visited far off distant lands Btw, I'm glad to see that you are broadening your horizons over there in Lithuania. Too many folks are happy to spend their time in one place and never even consider anywhere else. My grandmother has never traveled further than 50 miles from her hometown in the N. of Scotland. Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 you are generalizing jim... i dont think the main stream media is aligned to my political ideals... quite the contrary in fact... i am interested... but i would like to find soemthing objective... i will read the book you suggested, but i merely pointed out a problem with credibility it that he has a dramatic predisposition towards anti-war of any kind. i think that this is an impossible stance to take in this day-in-age and i cant agree on many points that a man that takes that stance woudl propose... i will read it, but with those reservations... Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 j-gowans... but have you been to albania? i have and i tell you, for the area that it is in, it is making remarkable progress and there is no other country in the area that has managed this much with out significant outside help... you callingthese people (essentially) dumb is offensive to me. I have many friends thqat are albanian and i currently have one as a roomate at the university here... i am sure he would disagree that he is dusm as he is a 3.8 business major... but he is just another dumb albanian right? hmmmk... Quote
JGowans Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 Fence_Sitter said: j-gowans... but have you been to albania? i have and i tell you, for the area that it is in, it is making remarkable progress and there is no other country in the area that has managed this much with out significant outside help... you callingthese people (essentially) dumb is offensive to me. I have many friends thqat are albanian and i currently have one as a roomate at the university here... i am sure he would disagree that he is dusm as he is a 3.8 business major... but he is just another dumb albanian right? hmmmk... Hold on FS. No way am I calling these people dumb. I thought I made myself clear earlier. You posed the question as to why I thought the Albanians that you knew were mostly supportive of this war. I offered you the answer that for most continental Europeans (I should have prefaced that by saying Western), they've had 60 years to contemplate the horrors of war, and consider themslves well beyond talk of wars. For Albanians on the other hand, their history of war is much more recent and as such, have not forgotten nor rationalized it with intellectualism. Hence, the feelings are more raw for them, and hence they feel a certain empathy for this current struggle in Iraq. When I talked about enlightenment, you'll remember that I prefaced that by stating "right or wrong, they...". I certainly do not consider Albanians any less intelligent that Western Europeans. I am merely proposing that they haven't had the luxury that we Western Europeans have had of 60 years of contemplation. Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 since when is 'emphathy' for a nation that is being gassed, oppressed and domintated in every (litterally) way a bad thing? i am from the camp that empathy for one's neighbors is a good thing... but i guess that is just that damn hatefull bible getting in the way of 'rational' thought again... piez dietz (sorry no syrillic characters) Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 and i giess the lithaunians, latvians and estonians (amoung others) have also had this time too...oh wait...they haven't it has barely been a decade since they have stopped being oppressed by the soviet rule, yet these people are being accepted into the EU.... they also are in agreement with the war, not because they are bitter about the attrocities commited against them, but because they know the pain that comes with having your family members shipped off to siberia or killed. so i really fail to see that point... in fact it is ridiculous... shouldn't these be the people that would know first hand the situation that the iraquis are going through and know how best to help them? je pense que oui... Quote
JGowans Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 Fence_Sitter said: it is making remarkable progress and there is no other country in the area that has managed this much with out significant outside help... Btw, Albania has had a VERY significant amount of outside help and continues to receive outside help even today... Per the CIA site: "The economy is bolstered by remittances from abroad of $400-$600 million annually, mostly from Greece and Italy. " Given that Albania's annual budget is around $600M this aid amounts to 70%-95% of their annual budget. Moreover, their budget runs at a deficit of around $900M a year. I'm not trying to disparage Albanians. I am merely pointing out that it is one of the poorest nations in Europe. Quote
JGowans Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 Fence_Sitter said: since when is 'emphathy' for a nation that is being gassed, oppressed and domintated in every (litterally) way a bad thing? i am from the camp that empathy for one's neighbors is a good thing... but i guess that is just that damn hatefull bible getting in the way of 'rational' thought again... piez dietz (sorry no syrillic characters) FS, I am NOT suggesting that empathy is a bad thing at all. I think our wires are being crossed somewhere because I think we're talking about the same thing here. I am trying to say that Western Euros have had 60 years to rationalize war to the point where they can't ever imagine participating in another. That could well be a failing because when the time comes that a war is necessary, it may be that we'll still be reluctant to go to war (not that I think this one was the right one but anyway...). The sense that we're enlightened and above all that crap could well be a failing (which I'll freely admit). For Albanians and other nations for whom democracy is relatively a new concept, war perhaps does not seem to be so unthinkable... Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 you mabe think that the reason that they are poor for the time being is that they have been a "country" (as in free) for less than a decade? the monetary quote i was refering to was that they received little help overthrowing their government...i am not talking aobut now... of course they need the $$$ they are (i am fairly sure) the newest nation (again by my previous definition) in europe... and that is including the baltic and other caucasus nations...you have still failed to address my point about the fact that experience with oppressive governments seems to be the best way to deal with the situation... how else can we know what to expect, but to ask those who have witnessed it first had what works and what doesn't... mabe this isn't theoretical enough, but make sense to me... Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 why is 'rationalization' (or forgetting) of the pain that was endured a good thing... pain is real...if you just want to ignore the pain that these people have been facing, so be ti, but i wont...these people have been fucked for far too long...i dont give a shit what the motives are of Bush...i just want saddam to stop inflicting these savage wounds... albania has just storpped feeling these wounds and so have a lot of other nations in central and eastern europe... why not use their experience to other's advantage rather than writing them of because they haven't 'rationalized' their pain or they aren't 'enlightened'. to assume that you are enlightened and they are not is an amazingly ehtnocentric view... i think if anyone could be enlightened to this world, it would be those that have seen so much...and you (like me) have seen very little... Quote
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