shaoleung

So when I'm "done" researching all this, do I get an engineering degree from somewhere? I have been in contact with a few people at the ASCA and one of them offered to send me some Powers/Rawl 5-piece bolts. He suggested these as they are a common standard and removal is pretty straight forward. He didn't say how long they were, but given our discussions, I am sure they're 3"+. The Hilti Center in South Seattle carries plenty of beautiful SS KB3s, but a box of 50 3/8"x 3-3/4" (316) is over $250. I've been told 304 is fine for Leavenworth, but I didn't check those prices. Billcoe: I am trying to put together a comparative spec sheet of all the bolts I am researching. I'll post it when I have it. Right now I just have Hilti and Powers bolts on there. I didn't include Petzl or Fixe since I think there is no question there. Any others you think I should check while I'm at it? Thanks!

Nothing has changed as far as I know. Did you use the "natural anchors" for the second rap? If so... you have more balls than I.

No. I would do it myself but not before gleaning some response from the climbing community. It's in a wilderness area and while one could argue there's good reason for another rap station... there are alternatives. Just want to know what people think about the idea.

Disclaimer: I have no plans to do this... but... Here we go... When descending Ingalls down the South Ridge with 2 people, you need 2 ropes. The rap anchors from the summit and the second rap station are on honkin'1/2" bolts and 40kN+ hangers. The first rap is done with 1 rope. The second rap goes down to the big ledge and is about 35m. Two ropes needed for this leg. Alternatively, many people apparently rap down to the thinner ledge about 10m or so above the big one. If you walk the ledge East you can find some webbing wrapped through some nasty-thin features. A safer alt if you're comfy downclimbing is to do a descending lead. Or... I have heard you can find a ledge system toward the western side and scramble down. While there are options, given that the current anchors are so great, why not put an intermediate rap station between the 2nd station and the big ledge?

These are the few @$$holes that make climbers seem like selfish egotistical ne'erdowells. People read this and picture Stallone with an enormous bolt gun and no mercy... climb at any cost to your partners/environment etc. Agreed... public humiliation is the only appropriate resolution to this.

There really is a lot of cool climbing around here. The self-deprecation is deserved only if you're a wuss about getting out. We don't have a huge selection of big stuff or super hard stuff, but there isn't a city in the country that beats the variety of rock, snow, mountains, water, wilderness, biking, etc etc that we have here.

Woofer - your experience sounds pretty scary. The instructor/class lacks some serious leadership... a vital part of every climber/class. Many new climbers hand over their lives to "instructors" and employ a blind-faith approach. While this is usually not fatal it sets a fatal precedent. There are many examples of fatal climbs where the climb leader/instructor was the first victim. No one's infallible. If you suspect something is unsafe while you're tied in, you should always say something. Any respectable climber you're with should be happy to explain why it is safe. As for "frickin' books"... there is no substitute for experience and books form part of that experience... as do classes (albeit bad ones). Even the best of courses need to be supplemented: reading about specific climbing techniques/methods that you're interested in; asking questions on a forum like this; finding some grizzled old climbers to show you their tricks. You start to build your knowledge... talk with people... and become a climber. Ahhh... metamorphosis.

While smaller... in FF they actually all know a thing or two about climbing... unless of course you're lookin to buy some stylin' new luggage... then off to REI with you!

Take chopsticks instead of a fork or spoon! They're more useful and can get those pesky little corners of deliciousness out from your freeze-dried food.

Planning on playing on Ingalls this week. Last time I did it, we were 4 with two ropes and ended up using both for the first rap. This time we're two and want to stick with a single 60m. If my memory serves me, we'll have to do a descending lead from the summit to the enormous South Face ledge... unless we bring another rope. Is this correct?

So the same bolt through Tacoma Screws is not up to scratch? On paper the Hilti Sleeve Anchor 304 seems like a better bolt. I couldn't find a price, but other than that possible obstacle, is there any other reason why this wouldn't be a great alternative?

There's definitely a place for fixed steel... though I am pretty sure the 11worth community wouldn't stand for it there.

R&D is a classic noob trad climb. Leavenworth has plenty of other easy routes to cut your teeth on, but one of the coolest things about R&D is that it is 100% you, your skills and the rock. No matter what you put up - via ferrata or nothing at all - Darwin is always hard at work, and there will always be someone inexperienced enough to get themselves in trouble. I'm all for bolt anchors where gear is impossible or dangerous... but R&D is just fine except if you need to rescue someone and no one else is around to help you... but hey, "Rock climbing is a hazardous activity where inexperience, ignorance and/or bad luck can result in dire consequences."

Reworded for clarity...

Armed with better jargon, more suggestions and renewed energy I think it is safe to say the original poll is dumb. So... I'd like to post a new poll slightly reworded... New Poll on Rebolting

Yes... I renamed the thread to better reflect the topic... rebolting rather than retro/FA rather than routesetter... geez... gotta get on the jargon... Just bought a tuning fork to get the 1/4" bolts out. My partner in crime and I are looking for a good deal on 3/8" or 1/2" stainless bolts and hangers.

Thanks Rad. In the past, I've heard of the hardware store folks... I feel like if I'm going to bother rebolting, it is worth the extra cash to do it with the good stuff. I'll avoid the hardware store alts.

Thanks for the clarification. It's been a while. I don't plan to add any bolts to existing routes... just replace the nasty ones. 3/8" is solid enough. 1/2" is overkill?

Assuming I can get the old ones out clean, just replacing.

For new routes or retrobolting old rusted stuff, what are some ideal bolts? I am looking at using 1/2" fixe 5-piece expansion bolts, but they're pricey. Is there an equivalent or superior bolt that is cheaper? Also, I haven't seen any resin bolting such as Petzl's Collinox . Is there any particular reason why these aren't used in Leavenworth?

The silliness is definitely crossed many times a day in the M's. The catch 22 of it all is that more experienced climbers that are well versed in this stuff don't want to participate in an organized group (save but the few uber-experienced that spend most of their time organizing the events). Since it is all volunteer-run, you get people with 1 or 2 years "experience" teaching the clueless. Who's responsible for getting more experienced climbers to teach the courses? I would argue the community of climbers. There are thousands of climbers in Washington that would likely have never gotten into the mountains/on the rock were it not for these groups. Don't they carry a responsibility to go back and teach in the Mountaineers or BoAlps?

Outfitters make money setting you up with gear. Guides make money taking you up the hill.

Roger that. Thanks for the wisdom... I only found the Beal Joker as having multi-ratings... $200+ each for 9.1mm ropes. That purchase may have to wait.

That's what I hear... is there different construction? They're both kern-mantle. I guess what I am wondering is, is this a marketing thing or a real concern? The reason I wonder, is that I'd like to get twin 60m ropes, but I'd like the option to use them as doubles for the not-so-direct routes.

So, are they interchangeable? Can you use ropes rated as Twin ropes as doubles?