shaoleung

There is very little in the North Cascades or the Olympics that is not incredible. You might add some more specific details to narrow it down. How technical? Snow/Glacier travel? Forest? Ridges? On/off trails?

So... skinning cats... yes there are many ways and everyone is different in their approach. It isn't so much an issue of how you do it, but what you end up with. Ivan Drago's approach would be fine by me were it not for the access issues that would come up if people started dropping off climbs every weekend at x38. So assuming the climbing community is cool with the many different ways to get where we're going... where are we going? This sounds like the foundational responsibility, no? Having said that, different people are happy with different levels of safety. When you have a regular crew of partners, you tend to fall into a pretty well defined range of expectations. The community as a whole is not so well defined. Is there any way to come to consensus about where climbers should strive to be? Should a pair of climbers doing R&D be fully versed in a small party vertical rescue or just know how to escape the belay?

Yes and yes.

Microfractures: As with everything... it's very subjective. I am using the biner dropped 60' and while it may be OK to use the one you drop from El Cap, I am pretty sure I wouldn't. As for tracking biners... I worry that the message being sent is an old-school message. If you're climbing with a well-established group of friends, a lost biner here and there... or even a lost cam is no biggie. However, if you are climbing with a lot of different people and you may or may not climb with them regularly, it is important to at least offer to pay for dropped/lost gear. More as a matter of etiquette than monetary reimbursement. I am a relatively new transplant to the NW and have climbed with dozens of people over the last few years. I have a few that are now regular climbing partners and I could care less if they have some of my gear when we drive home. But if I didn't care and each of the people I climbed with had a biner or two, I wouldn't have any gear left.

Peakpimp, at risk of opening this up to bitchers and moaners... you might want to look into the Mountaineers. The key to getting a decent experience there is to remember that they're all volunteers and you really get out of it what your attitude lets you. The dicks who go in with the I'll-sit-at-the-back-of-the-class-and-be-cool attitude tend to get more attitude. People with experience like you will have a mostly refresher experience unless you talk with the old-school folks... then you can actually get a lot out of it. I have my reservations about the Mounties in general, but I really think you're in a spot where they would open a lot of doors for you.

From what I remember, they share a belay station (if you can really call it that) but the line appears to go directly off to the right sharing no moves with Insomniac. Having never been there before and based on what you're saying, it appears to now have a direct start. I will have to check that out next time I'm out there.

I think we're pretty good for Alpine Clubs actually. Certainly in the Northwest. There are at least 2 major Alpine Clubs with a huge membership. As you said, There is such emphasis on the individual that joining a club makes people feel weak I guess. Then we seem to fixate on the few fools we find who are members of a club such as the Mountaineers and label that as the standard. I'd bet most experienced climbers have met more idiots outside that are not Mounties than are. I guess the bigger picture on my original question was getting at the idea that we have a community that hates being told they're doing something wrong. While their lack of knowledge may not immediately affect me, I worry that the more people that get hurt, the more climbing areas will get shut down. There's only so much the Access Fund can do. So how does a climbing community with so many people that don't want to participate in that community keep safe and healthy?

Interestingly enough, I climbed Insomniac right after the short 11c route. They are the "second pitches" on Headlight Point- Right. They are independent once you complete a very short 5.6: either eating rocks or eating dust.

The M's have their issues, but it's the over-confident I-boulder-V7-but-can't-tie-an-8 people that are really scary.

I have heard a lot of debate about what the "logical" developmental progression should be for new climbers. There are those that believe you should learn in small steps: gym bouldering to top rope plastic to gym leading... and finally trad. Then others believe the apprentice method is best: trad second for long enough to figure it out, then trad lead. While there are great reasons for each thoughtful approach, one thing still vexes me: Every year, it seems like there are more and more folks at crags that know just enough to get themselves killed, and they are "teaching" other people to climb. Do we let Darwin do his work? How do you approach complete strangers about safety issues without being the-dick-who-knows-everything?

Sweet! Thanks for the beta. I'll check them out.

Thanks Rad. I am rediscovering 38 after several years of looking elsewhere... some great climbs have been put up.

Yeah... the traverse is a definite one-move-wonder. The one is fun, but the rest is weak. The short steep run on the same anchors was cool though. Am I blind?... I can't find it in the guide book.

We were climbing at the Far Side's Interstate Park - Eastern Block. We climbed Tunnel of Love and noticed a couple of stiff lines on the opposite wall. I climbed the bolted traverse thinking it was the easy approach to the anchors of an overhanging .11(?). Turns out the traverse was probably a .10. Does anyone have any Beta on these climbs?

Good points... we worked it out pretty much on the gist of the post. He offered to buy a new one, I said not to worry about it. He bought beer. I paid for gas. Ahhh... all's well that ends well. I am surprised to hear so many people saying they don't care about losing gear. I need to find a better job.

In the dozen or so years I've been climbing, there are a couple of things I always held true, without question. One of those things is that if I drop someone's gear from a climb, then I have to replace it. Thankfully I have never dropped someone else's gear and until recently, no-one I've climbed with has dropped mine. About a week ago one of my climbing partners dropped a relatively new, lightweight, locking biner from about 60 feet. It bounced down the slab face to the ground. He offered a much older (could it have been REI brand?) and heavier biner as a replacement. I laughed and said, "No thanks, you can get a replacement at Second Ascent." My truth was called into question based on a handful of studies that suggest micro-fractures do not in fact reduce the integrity of biners. I responded, "Then you can use the one you dropped and I'll take a new one." What is the right thing to do? Is there consensus on this one?

Let's face it: climbers will never agree on where bolts should be... but if a bolt gets you so riled up you have to beat it with a rock until it is not only still there, but now completely useless, you have some more serious issues at hand. You probably need to work on your anger management and check that your insurance can cover the therapy you no doubt need.

Trip: ONP - Mt Olympus - Blue Glacier Date: 7/4/2008 Trip Report: 2 climbers. 4 days. Our original plan was to camp on the Five Fingers, then do the 3 summit traverse and out via glacier pass. We left the Hoh Visitor Center on Thursday afternoon for Elk Lake. We broke camp at 3am Friday for the summit. Elk Lake to Glacier meadows was marred with windfall and one tenuous, though passable avy chute. Trailess sections were well flagged by the seasonal ranger. We took about 2 hours with large packs. Glacier Meadows to Moraine - stay in the center of the valley until you hit the well marked trail up past the blue-bag tank. If you climb too early, you'll likely turn this into the most dangerous part of your climb. From the moraine, visibility was good. Several crevasses on the blue were visible but very small. We roped up for the ascent. Snow was soft. At about 6:30am, a lenticular cap started to form above Olympus. By the time we reached the base of snow dome winds had picked up significantly and the peaks were completely shrouded by a thick cap. 2 parties ahead of us turned around at the crest of the snow dome. At about 6,300', we dug out and set up camp. Plenty of water on the rocks at the base of the snow dome. We tried to wait it out, but the weather got worse. Saturday AM we waited until 7am for an opening, but the rain and wind continued. We roped up and headed out. There were at least 2 more parties attempting to summit on Saturday. Not sure if they made it. Approach Notes: Rangers indeed give you the worst-case scenario. This is for the lowest common denominator. They don't know you any better than the other fine folk hiking around the visitors center and most of them are clueless. I once met a couple up there with tennis shoes that said they were going to climb Oly. Despite the moaning of the tougher-than-nails crew, there have been several deaths in the area. Nothing beats experience and I think you will find that when you hear "definitive" beta, it is more often than not wrong, or simply outdated. Experience will tell you, be gregarious, ask as many people as you can and take everything with at least a grain or two of salt.

Looking for some Beta on the routes at the drip wall not covered in The Kramer guide. Anyone have a web site or contact with an updated topo/beta?

Next time you see someone selling stuff, act interested, ask how much and get his name and phone number "so you can call him later." Gear thieves suck.

Flee to the hills! No wait! There are terrorists up there too! I would like to know if their check-points are under the pretext of doing some worthwhile or "Homeland Security." Hmmm... research time...

I volunteered in ONP several summers while I was in college. I can see why it's upsetting, but I can also understand some of why they do it. All of the full time, district/sub-district rangers are trained as Law Enforcement Rangers. They carry guns and have the authority to arrest people, etc. Most of the time the LE is their least favorite part of the job... however... Climbers tend to be pretty conscientious about environment, etc, but there are plenty of jack*sses that go in there with bad beer, fireworks and a total disregard for where they are of the people around them. They start fires and chuck cans around and the rangers are expected to smile and ask them politely to not do these things. Often the offenders agree to stop, continue anyway, then cut the switchbacks, pick flowers and sh*t in the rivers on their way out.

Come on now children. This is getting silly... no wonder it's hard to start a serious thread around here!

It has been done several times as A3. It looks like a serious project. They were still a good 4 or 5 feet from the lip of the visor on Sunday night. If someone's up there this coming weekend, how about ask at the pro shop in town?

I was looking for beta recently on this too. The guys at Second Ascent would be a good source. You might call Mountain Madness too and ask them if they have any trip reports you can read and/or guides that might have been up there recently.