Clavote

Is that other girl trying to take the dollar bills from her crotch?

Molly, While working on Mt. Rainier 11 years ago, two friends who were climbing rangers died on a SAR. I was hired to replace them and finish out the season. My first day on the job, I talked with all the climbers at the high camp. Every one of them was very much aware of the accident a week earlier, and that the route conditions were treacherous. Every one. My second day, I watched three of the same people I spoke with the day before, who appeared exceedingly cognicent of the conditions, take a 2500 foot, cartwheeling fall down the route. Two died, one barely survived. I've had numerous friends die climbing in the years since, most recently last spring in Alaska. Each and every of them were more than aware of the risks of this life and in climbing. So your patently false and ill informed judgments are not appreciated in the slightest and are amazingly disrespectful. wow. I don't know what to say about that. The people who were falling in the reports I read were just random climbers, not experts. And, the reports seem to indicate the reason for the fall was the equivalent of 'pilot error.' So, I'm not trying to be disrepectful. I had no idea the SAR people could be at that kind of risk that so many of them could die. Hey Ghoul, there is no death hirearchy. Kevbone speaks the truth. It's like watching somoene speak out loud to themselves as a way to figure it out. I'm sure glad natural selection endowed me with the ability to think silently. That way the lion does not find me when I am obsessing ghoulishly about the death of others at the watering hole earlier today...Was it "pilot error" when they got too close to the edge without checking for predators? W is also giving you a clue about what you sound like and how people are reacting to you. Be open minded and listen to outside suggestions. Maybe now you can actually try asking questions without first throwing out your flawed logic. And don't be an asswipe by saying "wow. I don't know what to say about that." W just told you something pretty significant and the lesson is lost on you because you just return back to what you read. Take it as fact, people with excellent skills can also get hurt or killed. There is no way you can "prepare" for all contingencies but you hope that your abilities to improvise and think will help. Sometimes, there is nothing you can do. I've been on Mt. Hood. It's pretty steep. I've never been on a clisdale, but I read that they bite and you could fall and hit your head and die. Would a guide let me ride without a helmet and a back-up airbag? It's all the same to me. Hell if my sailboat starts to take on water, I'll call the USCG, deploy the EPRIB and launch my back-up sailboat. Hell, sailing is just as dangerous as climbing, so much so that I can state here that it's the same thing...and I would have done things differently on Hood because of my sailing and horsey experience. I am smarter and would have lived! Yes, a horse saved me.

When you're car is skidding sideways out of control, are you actively analyzing the situation? Or are you acting instinctively and going with the flow? Are you actions to avoid a horrific crash based on a premade "plan"? Your statement is a fear based approach, you strive to control the uncontrollable. Your mindset preparation leaves no room whatsoever for encountering a foreign situation- you can plan all you want for every contingincy- so what happens if the forecast calls for 4 days of sun and the storm of the century arrives on day 2? Lay down and die? Or learn as you go? Yes, sliding on ice and snow in a car is a great example. You can be told which way to turn the wheel to get out of that kind of a skid way in advance of it ever happening. And the direction is counter intuitive. I realize absolutely there is a lot of learn as you go and just plain dumb luck in these kinds of sports. But, this particular sport is so unforgiving of any tiny mistake that I think it requires a lot more education and training than is commonly portrayed. Let me ask you this: if these folks had hired a mountain guide, would he have allowed them to leave when they did, carrying the supplies they carried? Maybe so, but then he would have been able to find the pearly gates on a dark night in a whiteout, too. Someone very familiar with that mountain would have had an extra backup system by definition. Molly, if I hired a guide, I would make that dude carry all my shit because it would weigh a ton (extra clothes, food and water for 30 days...water purifier, more food, a TV and stereo in case of being in a cave for extended periods. A cell phone, a MLU a PLB, and some waterproof matches.) And if the weather was shitty I would break out my Petzl Guide Whip so I could giddy up on his ass and make it to the summit in time for cocoa and marshmellows over the campfire we will make with the firewood my guide carried up. My guide is my backup system. He also has a backup and a backup-backup (compass/map and GPS). If all else fails, we will just use our paragliders and soar off the summit and land at the lodge for some irish coffee. As to why climbers climb with strangers. Well, it's hard to find people to climb with. You do have to check them out and feel comfortable with their abilities. That is a variable. However, most climbers can asses each other out pretty quickly. Maybe what you also need to know is that climbing is a risk taking/evaluating sport. You make decisions on what you are taking/doing based on your reading of all the available data and making a risk assesment that is comfortable to you.

Why don't you just tell me what I'm missing about the situation, then? I came here to be educated, not insulted. The powers that be put 'ghoul' under my name, because no one is allowed to question anything a climber does here, I guess. But, all of it is open to question, and it will be questioned by people who know a lot more than I do. Because I'm not the only one interest in safety in this world. Molly, the stupid thing you are doing is extrapolating your experiences in armchairing, sailing, hiking, whatever else you do and saying it's the same in climbing when you have never climbed. Never climbed....that sorta stands out. Does that sound like you're an informed person? I sure don't think so. I think you would make a bad expert witness on mountaineering. However, if you want to speculate, speculate and ask questions, but do not make assumptions based on sailing and horsey riding. People will not take you seriously. Good speculation is based on good knowledge. No one said you could not question climbers, go ahead. Many others have managed to ask questions and not sound like a know it all. Go ahead and try a different route with your questions. Forgive me for getting off topic but that post of yours about it being steep near the top and falling....that was funny! I mean, falling being dangerous, I never would have known that falling or being blown off a summit to my death was dangerous! Wow. I mean, it is steeper near the top of the horse right? You could get blown off a horse by the winds caused by a rushing attack dog (a pit bull, let's go with an attack pit bull owned by some pot growers in Humboldt, county...good)So I can see how you made that whole thought in your head come together. You did some research. You made some invalid extrapolations based on...well, you've never climbed...based on nothing. Climbers will speculate and more than likely they will have a definitive answer from the sherrif about "how it happened". I'm sure that's what you want to know too. How they died. Did they freeze in their sleep or did they plunge thousands of terrifying feet to their death? Sorry there were no explosions to make it even more exciting for you. And by the way, you are in spray. You know what that means right? You can post any dumb ass comments and people will fuck with you if they think it's a stupid question. Maybe you should start blog so you can enjoy writing to yourself.

Yes, I think you're right. People get cold and tired, and then things happen. That's why preparation and planning are so important, I would say. You want to have the decision tree already in place so the answer to a question is always 'intuitive.' And, exceeding your limits in a dangerous environment can turn deadly, right? No I don't climb. I hike and ski and ride horses and sail. But the principles are all the same. Not quite the same. It may seem that way from your armchair. Since you have not climbed, you're probably not anyone I would take advice from. However, most experienced climbers will not benefit from what you say simply because it's old hat and everyone does that already. You just seem like somoene trying to figure this out. That's OK, but it does sound like you think you know what you are talking about, when to someone who climbs you just sound plain unknowledgeable about the sport. Sorry to be harsh, but you seem to like listening to yourself. And you are creepy. Are you aware it says Ghoul beneath your name? It's appropriate. Have a safe day in the armchair.

This has only been going on for like, 15 or 20 years... I wonder if it is getting more common now for some who perceive it as just another vacation and don't perceive the risk. There were a lot of climbers in this series, (according to the mountain guide) who were putting others at risk just by being there. There were actually waiting lines at the top, of more than an hour, while better climbers cooled their heels in minus 40F, waiting for less skilled climbers to negotiate a difficult passage. I've also noticed from my recent readings, that the fatal accidents seem to tend to happen more on the descent. Not sure why that is. This may seem a silly question. Have you climbed before? And no insult meant. The stats are real and most people get hurt going down because they are tired sleep deprived and just plain let their guard down when tired, cold, etc.. Check it out: go climbing these things will become logical.

You're kinda creepy like in a wait for someone to die way and you want to analyse the whole thing over and over again. Why? you have been asking questions now how about a question for you. Thanks and have a safe new year.

You can siphon this gas from your car's tank and put it in a nalgene. Gawd, another newbie assclown. The proper climbing protocol is to siphon gas from the tank of the vehicle *next* to you at the TH. Especially that stupid shiny SUV. Prepared climbers keep a small prybar to pop open the gas lid. It's stupid to steal your own gas, as you would hate to run out on the drive home. Gawd damn! I knew there was a reados not to syphon fuel from my rideshare car. We ran out of fuel, but it was OK we just pumped my buddies stomach and got a good two gallons of gas. Enough to make it to the chevron. Next time, we bring a crowbar to pry open SUV gas tanks as well as the doors so we can get inside the leathery interior and get some yummy treats. We will not be prying open subarus because they usually have organic food that tastes like cardboard and semlls like unwashed hippie.

Well, now I'm not sure about getting a bivy sack. Since my tent is pretty light already. But I do think I am going in the right dorections when I want to be really light so I still think I want one. I want to reduce weight, but I'm on the fence because my single wall SD flash magic weighs 3 lbs. and I can fit two people in it. A bivy would weigh between 1 and 2 lbs, but not offer the same room as the flash magic. With one person the flash magic is pretty roomy. I have another question about the bivy sacks for you guys. Do you use a pad inside or outside the sack? I have a 2.5" insulated inflateable pad and I would really like it inside. Do you think most bivys would accomodate a pad? Thanks again for the great suggestions.

Snow does not burn unless you add plenty of gasoline. Not that coleman crap. Good high octane gas. Lots of it. Don't be a cheap ass and skimp on quantity. You can siphon this gas from your car's tank and put it in a nalgene. You can have fun with this too by offering your friends a drink of "water" from you nalgene. Just be ready with matches because they will spray after the first gulp and you want to light the spray and impress your other friends in camp with your fire breathing buddy.

Of course that's not the sort of legacy that they would have wanted to leave, but keep in mind that the people who make the laws for the most part probably have very little perspective on what climbing is about. I remember a few months ago seeing a story in the Oregonian about a 19 year old hiker (as opposed to CLIMBER) who was described as an "avid outdoorsman" who stepped out of his tent near Mt. Hood at night to take a leak and fell off a cliff. He was trying to sue the Federal Government for not posting signs warning of dangerous cliffs. And yet, they let people like this reproduce and keep their DNA in our gene pool. Maybe they should issue reproduction permits so we can cull out the dumber genes in our society. If your IQ is lower than some threshold (someone else gets to decide this) you get sterilized. Oh, wait...China kinda used to do this. Nevermind, even the stupid have the right to reproduce in America because we are free and not a communist/socialist country. So leave the rest of us alone and we'll let you replicate yourself.

Ugh.....give me a break. Food water for a week on a glaciated peak? What about a stove and fuel? Compass but no topo map? Been in the mountains long? Maybe we should all pack some extra underwear in case of an accident and we crap ourselves and need to be clean and fresh smelling during the rescue. Now that's survival thinking! Red clothing? are you kidding people already look like consumerist nightmares in flourescent colored clothing from REI. Maybe we could carry flares and smoke markers too? It's pretty hard to see a small red dot from thousands of feet. I think your ideas are misguided but well intentioned. Climbing is (partly for some) about YOU not getting into MY business. If something goes wrong and I screwed up, it's natural selection and I do not want legislation imposed on you for my mistakes, and not from somoene who is not fully aware of what climbing is about.

I think I have moved away from the bibler's because of cost. The orthovox seems too much like an emergency bag since it has "help" in big letters written over it. This may be bad if I turn over in the night and someone thinks I'm in dstress. Can you imagine after what happened on hood! I am down to the integral designs South Col about $210 The Black Diamond winter bivy about $100 and the Mountain Hardwear Mountain Sack $210 That sindow in the hood part is very attractive since you can see out without having to pull the fabric off your face. The BD does not have zippers so that may get disqualified if it is hard to get in and out. My next step is to find where to try these out and get inside. Thanks everyone for your suggestion and what to look for.

People you don't even know?? How many people that require assistance anywhere do YOU know personally? In this case, it's called the "304th Air Rescue Squadron." It's part of the Department of Defense. "RESCUE." What's their mission if it's not to rescue people whether it be soldiers or civilians? Charge everyone for being rescued?? Or just the minute percentage of climbers who may need it? Or better, who YOU think should be charged?? Society has already decided to pay for the cost of climbers in accidents, houses on fire that need firemen, cops to keep us safe, the military to bomb Iraq, etc... It's been decided. We pay our taxes like the non-climbers. So we deserve the same services provided to us by the gov. There is no need to argue with a few boneheads about this as it's a moot point. However, if you try to change this, we will have a political battle over it. And frankly, we have bigger problems to tackle than the relatively low-cost of SAR services. (most of which have a big volunteer component) Those climbers did their thing. It did not work out to plan and they paid the price. We,the government, the people; did the right thing to expend money to search for them; no matter how foolish you think their actions were. Think about it, next time you drive too fast and have an accident, should we send a cop, ambulance, fire dept. to help you? Hell, we "don't even know you"!! In case, you want the answer...Hell yes, we should send rescue to you. We would be a sad excuse for a society if we did not. Many non-climbers want people to take "responsibility" and climbers have been doing so long before this accident and it is a pretty safe sport compared to something we never think about such as driving. Climbers pay taxes and vote. We have already paid for SAR services, should they ever be needed.

Thanks for pointing out the space issue. That's a big concern for me since I do like to change socks and stuff and I want to be out of the wind. However, I am not expecting to do extended stays in a bivi sack so I can forgo some liveability. If I have to emergency bivi in a cave, I'll be wearing everything that's dry. The montbell may too small, but I appreciate the suggestion. I just saw the Black Diamond (used to be bibler before, I think) winter bivi and it looks very breatheable, light and inexpensive. I gotta check out the Orthovox bag. I never even considered it. Thanks!

Q. What's the difference between Canada and yogurt? A. One has an active culture. Seriously, I think BC and AB are great places to visit. And I love those Tim Horton's butterscotch coffees. Yum Canada.

Move to Mormon country and you can have 10 virgins right now. Utah has a habit of simulating virginity to conform to the religious norms of society there. Some of those "virgins" are pretty wild and best of all, they remain virginal.

I'm looking to get a lightweight bivi sack. I want something that packs small and is light. I am kinda leaning toward the Mountain Hardwear Roc Sack because it has a window. I am currently using a Sierra Designs Flash Magic. A very good early single wall tent, but I want something for lighter trips. Any suggestions or experiences with you bivi sack would be appreciated. Thanks

I could lash back at that, but choose not too, at least for now. I had enough of that last night with pink and Lamebone. Instead, I will pray that some way, somehow, you and others like you all will come to know the very God that created you AND the mountains you climb. So you reserve the right to lash back? Strange. You should just do some climbing and chill out on the theology or go spray somewhere else about god. Last I looked, god was never belaying me.

That's how it starts! I know. Next thing you know, you're writing that $500 check for a parka at REI.

Catbirdseat, I'm interested in the cable rig. Do you think it would work well in a horizontally placed picket as well? How did you secure the cable to the picket? Thanks

Oh oh.... I very rarely see trash where mountaineers go. They leave the six pack crowd a long way down on the trails. Most mountaineers/climbers/hunters/activist/vegans/peta-types, etc.. are good people who like a clean environement and work to preserve it. The mountain rescue people are great, they volunteer to help each other and strangers out. What is bad about that? I am grateful they are watching my back. I hope never to have to use their services. Some people are yupie-like. I agree we have these, but they seem the exception and you can keep away from them, literally. You can spot their unatural neon color, gore-tex, $500 parkas miles away. They tend to look like REI catalogs. You know who you are attention whores. Maybe there are more of them. The popularity of this sport has attracted the urban yuppie looking for a thrill. I hope they make another sport more prestige enhancing in their social circles. Something really tough like bull riding or rally car racing. Those guys are nuts. Really, you should try climbing if you haven't before. It would relax you.

Good call on the California cascades and peaks. Lassen is a very fun mountain with a paking lot and road at the base when the road is open. It's nice and steep in the winter too so it gives a strenous ascent. There is risk, you could fall and hit a rock. The snow usually covers the switchbacks that you can see in summer so just go up. Big plus is the active geothermal areas in the park. Lots of other nice climbs such as brokeoff mt. 9700 feet. Not big but great entry level experience, if there's such a thing. Both can be done in tennis shoes in summer. Shasta is also a really nice mountain. They have a ranger at helen lake 10K feet. The ridge routes are great in winter and the obviously named avalanche gulch is pretty much avoided in winter but still has rockfall in summer. It has a good approach and usually takes 2 days. It can be done in a day from bunny flat. The "standard route". But this is also a mountain that can come at you hard when you least expect it, just like Hood. 14K+ feet. White Mountain peak is also a good mt. to summit. It's long, 15 miles round trip and easy to do in one day. The UC high altitude research station is on the trail. Also 14K+ feet. Hiring a guide for your first experience/class would be a good investment in your safety if you want to climb. There are some really great outfits at all the mountains. I took a raineer summit and introductory mountaineering class, it was fun and I learned a lot. It made me aware of safety and the importance of learning more skills. I don't understand why they did not call 911 right off when the phone worked. I am sure the sequence of events will explain this question.

The media are a bunch of blood sucking vultures. Fox has made a huge deal of this with their "fair and balanced" inaccurate terminology. You're right. People die on mountains. Happens every year somewhere. All that expensive gear they sell at REI has some indemnity tag that you could get D E D dead.

That's pretty much the way you would climb a Mt. year round. Some Mts get really cruddy in summer because there is not enough snow to keep rocks from falling on you. I like ridge routes in winter myself. The snow makes the uneven rock surface of the ridges much smoother and easier to walk on and you do get to avoid some avi danger.