tvashtarkatena

Because the Death Stump is still heavily tatted up, looks OK from above, is way more visible than the 'good' tree, which is a brushy mess, perhaps? Or maybe we are, in fact, just morons. that's always a possibility. Also, we were descending the W Butt, not Dark Rythm. I looked for a bolt anchor to climbers left, but couldn't see one. I found it mid rap, but continued because the stump still looked OK from above. Um...not. Rest assured, after my next trip, the Death Stump will be a Death Memory. I"m going to ax murder the shit out of that thing, trundle it, blow it up, then burn it. It's so rotten excision shouldn't take long. Hope that doesn't ruin the character of the climb for anyone. Actually, Ivan's the far more experienced rock jock, although SuperBoy could probably catch up pretty quickly - he's not one to underestimate, I've found.

I'm going to gift it to you so you can call it a 'new' rope.

Jesus, Oleg, you still needed that cleared up?

Yes, ignoring a bad law is, actually, a tried and true way to eventually get rid of it. Sometimes whole states officially ignore a bad law. Toke, anyone? I mean, how else do you think bad shit gets changed, exactly? "We ask the nice federal government if they'd plaase change that bad, bad pot law." This is America, dood. Put yer fuckin' dukes up! I 502 was one big FUCK YOU to both the WA legislature for its inaction and the Feds lack of just about everything except guns and prisons. You gotta fight...for the right....

You should have seen the death stump we rapped off of prior to that. you probably know the one. OMFG. I called up to Josh "you may not like this much". He didn't. At all. I think we may have been the first idiots to use that thing in years. Overall, not our best descent day. We left no flake unturned. I'll come over if I'm in town - but I've been busy with other crap lately and I'm really itching to get out. I've probably got your address somewhere, but if you could help me find it....

1) As I stated, I don't know if the OR legislature gave Smith the power to ban smoking or not, it may have, so that's fine. If not, that's probably not fine. As for whether folks should be allowed to smoke at Smith - that hasn't been at issue in this discussion. If the proper entities use their LEGAL authority to do so, personally, I couldn't care less either way. 2) Relax. This is spray, where the ridiculous and the important intermingle on occasion. No one is conflating Smith with the Drug War in terms of impact - duh. They share underlying principles, however. and that is relevant to the discussion. That government often does not respect the rule of law while, at the same time, demanding compete obedience to same is a point well worth considering. That the government often passes unjust, counterproductive, or overly restrictive laws is another. If you'd care to address the points I've actually made, that'd be cool. Anything beyond that is all you, my brother. BTW, there is no '80s Drug War'. There is only the Nixon administration to present, and Bigger and Badder than Ever Before Drug War. The seeds of this war were planted long, long before that. Jesus - are there still folks out there who really believe the Drug War was a come and gone Reagan thing? Holy shitboxes.

More accurately, it's not clear to you...it is to just about everyone in the business, advocacy, political, or criminal justice. The AG has now officially agreed with my assertion, so you'll forgive me if I'm not terribly concerned about your carping sans counterpoint. I've grown used to that from you. The topic is important, however, so... Our per capita incarceration rate is nearly twice that of the next runner up - Russia, and over 7 times that of China, that bastion of civil rights. We are an extreme outlier worldwide. Contrast that with our violent and property crimes rates, which are not terribly different from other first world nations. Incarceration rates have continued to skyrocket despite significant drops in crime across the board in the past 2 decades. The Drug War (the main bulk of the rules I was referring to) has statistically been, by far, the major cause of this massive increase in prison population. Hence, the 'too many rules' assertion. Incarceration rate by year, United States This graph is based on DOJ data that is widely available, BTW. The Drug War has also been the primary excuse to pass numerous laws that erode the 4th and 5th amendments, remove judicial discretion, and increase sentences. The new direction the US is currently taking includes de-criminalization (fewer laws) , undoing mandatory sentencing (fewer laws), restoring judicial discretion, diversion programs for low level offenders to treatment rather than prosecution, restoration of convict rights after time is served to repair the damage done to so many lives, and a host of other policy shifts. It will take time. A long, long time. 41 years is a long time to suffer under such devastating policies. We've overused criminallzation (too many rules, and bad ones, at that) to solve societies ills - and it wound up doing far more damage than it repaired. The DOJ is finally acknowledging that - and that has a tremendous amount to do with the I 502 campaign (much of the DOJ's recent statements on the topic were lifted straight from 502's supporting arguments.) Exciting, but we have decades of work ahead to undo this civil rights clusterfuck we've created.

Ptobably mine. 10.5 x 60, blue grey, near the bottom of Dark Rythm. Sorry, meant to police it but never got back up there. We stuck it near sunset. We can wait until our next trip or I can pick it up from you at your convenience. Thanks, Stewart. Whats your beer brand these days?

Nobody said it was easy.

I thought it was closed to bikes part of the year. Rob/FW - Let me guys know if you are down for a november ride there... You're right. Didn't know that. That's my illegal camping/campfire season anyway, so it follows.

Tiger's open all year round, no?

I like the suggestion, but you're basically asking people to replace laws with morality. Never gonna happen. Plato played out this same thought exercise in The Republic about 2500 years ago and (some say) satirized its folly. I'm not a big fan of laws these days--particularly, like you say, laws for the sake of laws. Here in the US it's a popular expression to boast "we are a nation of laws!" This is, at the same time, admitting our failures since laws would be largely unnecessary in a moral society. It may never happen fully, but we can certainly walk in that direction. 'Zero tolerance' (Thanks, Gipper!) is another failed American idea that is still particularly popular with our nation's school marm set. Problem is, it has nothing to do with reality. I never thought a lot of things would happen - in my life, outside my life - but they have. The word 'inmpossible' so often comes with an assumed prediction of the future. The future is often a choice, however. How that choice is framed goes a helluva long way towards choosing wisely.

Clearly? Maybe we just have more criminals. I'm with you on the drug war is a failure, Pat, but I don't think its as simple as "less rules will solve our criminal justice problems." I mean, I doubt too many inmates in federal prison are locked up for smoking at Smith Rock State Park. Actually, your statement is not true at all. Half of inmates at all levels are in prison for non-violent drug offenses, and half of those are for marijuans. We DO lock people up for smoking - 800,000 of them, - more than the population of Seattle, is behind bars right now for inhaling a weed. America does have more criminals because it has criminalized far more behavior than any other nation. This may well be the only form of on-shore manufacturing that has flourished in recent years. Eric Holder just issued an incredible pair of memos outlining how we've gone wrong regarding the Drug War, and what prosecutors should focus on going forward to repair that. His assertions are right on the money and portend a stunning sea change away from our current period of massive government dysfunction. I'll see if I can find a link (mine's a hardcopy). We do, indeed, live in amazing times. Nothing in this world is simple, but many things are simpler than we are often led to believe.

@ Olev: high maintenance girlfriends? There's really no compelling reason why climbers should be denied the incredible experience of camping in the Monkey Cave in a zero impact fashion (and that would mean blue bags, of course). The Park has a no camping rule simply because it is more easily enforced - for them. This is pretty transparent to many climbers, so the rule loses its legitimacy. Its not entitlement - its having a brain. Laws which put people in jail for smoking a weed, prevent people from marrying who they love, and fund the killing of innocent people abroad all help to erode the legitimacy of government and authority. The argument is often framed as it is here - only citizens need to step up and obey the rules. Well, it works both ways. Government needs to step up and do things that actually make sense and promote the best of our values, not our worst. And government VERY OFTEN breaks the law, and when it does, it does so spectacularly and in a fashion far more damaging than any private citizen could manage. Surveillance anyone?

Two 'rules' are all that are needed, it seems to me: 1) leave a place as good or better than when you arrived. 2) Be mindful and considerate.

Discretion and consideration make the world a happier place. The more people practice them, the fewer rules we need. Given that we boast the highest per capita incarceration rate in the world, America clearly has an overabundance of rules. And an overly stringent system of rules often creates more problems and pain than it solves. Rules tend to take on a life of their own - enforcing them, not the original objectives they were supposedly designed to achieve, becomes the focus. The Drug War comes to mind. When the system becomes baroque and ridiculous enough, the rule makers lose legitimacy and people default to doing their own thing. We've become enamored with the 'if only people would just obey the rules' concept, and overly vindictive against anyone who doesn't share this flawed, and frankly, dead end philosophy. What's really needed is a renewed cultural emphasis on consideration - towards nature and other park visitors. America has become the most narcissistic nation on earth - ("we're number 1! blah blah blah") Crowdsourcing (the only difference between this and panhandling is that the panhandler actually needs the money). Facebook ("I just made an omelette!"). We'd do well to step away from ourselves a bit and cast our gaze outward. More difficult to achieve, perhaps, but far more effective in achieving the end goal of making the park a better place. Pipe dream? Perhaps, but I've seen a lot of pipe dreams come true lately.

Rule of law goes both ways. Smiffy's ban on smoking is very likely illegal. Best not to get one's Pranas in a wad about minor law breaking - we all do it, and that includes Johnny Law. When the latter does it, however, there is always a victim.

A slippery slope argument is more compelling with supporting analogous data. The government spies on international communications, so we may suspect that they spy on domestic ones as well. In a data vacuum, such a tactic quickly becomes ridiculous. In a country of 300 million, we have zero via ferrata routes on public lands. I don't believe there has been any attempts to put any up, even. The US doesn't manage its lands the same way Europe does, and there is little indication that that philosophy, or the robust laws that put it into action, will change any time soon. So too, the 'single criterion' debate tactic used so commonly on forums like this. 'All climbers care about is convenience' is the one being used here. The debater then paints a future world where this is true - hotdog stands on top of El Cap, whatever. The problem with this tactic, of course, is that the single criterion model doesn't describe what is necessarily a much more complex reality. It also ignores any rule of law the would prevent such a world from coming into being. Unlike the slippery slope argument, which can make sense when supported by relevant analogous data, the 'single criterion' argument seldom produces anything other than one dimensional cartoon outcomes that can't actually happen. While these two tactics are often used in an attempt to make one's opponent appear wrong, dishonest, or ignorant, they invariably backfire when presented to an informed, critical audience such as this one. Politicians often combine these two flawed forms of argument to pump up an audience that is self-selected for their propensity to agree, regardless of what they are asked to agree with. In that non-critical, uninformed environment, these two tactics can be effective at gaining support.

resting up for the slackline

Cinnamon Toast Goldfish = FAIL Caramel Bugles = CRACK

The Smiff smoking ban might not survive a legal challenge unless the OR legislature has already granted its state parks statutory power to do so: http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2013/Oct22/judg.html

Can't we all just smoke a bowl/read our Bibles together?

Is that really true? LOL Speaking of smoking, my learned sources tell me that that Oregon will likely legalize a certain herbal remedy next year, meaning that it will be available for legal commercial purchase sometime the following year.

You make an excellent point Kevbone - I am part of this shitshow now by proxy. Ugh. I'm attempting to post mortem this thing, which is very likely the wrong thing to do here. It wouldn't be my first mistake.

It's a timing/diplomacy thing. Posting a pic of illegal Monkey camping w/ a fire was begging for a shitstorm, as well as a citation. I don't have an issue with anything in the TR - Russian finger potatoes in the grand scheme of things, but the event really didn't require advertisement. I really took exception to the shitty, nasty reaction to the TR by those Smiffholes who feel somehow entitled to junior parking cop/Popedom there - a point I don't need to belabor any further. The universe's timing helped create this shitstorm - as it followed closely on the heels of the Utah trundling incident (something I wasn't even aware of until this mornings headlines). That provided some truly dishonest red meat for the Smiffholes to bloat their smear campaign, which practically placed the Russkies right alongside the Scoutmasters in goblin land. Political campaign tactic 101. Just what the world needs more of. Of course, the shit wave expanded amongst the usual suspects until every alpinist who ever removed a death block (or just knocked one down a chosspile for the spectacle) was conspiring to topple Castleton Tower and dry hump Delicate Arch as a finale. I heart gym rats telling alpinists how to climb. Oh, your hold just rotated. Better call the route setter to tighten it. I just wonder if we really need to continue this running gun battle under this threads completely BS guise is all. I know its the Mountain Men versus the Preachers here, a general cultural rift that splits our Republic right where that huge stick penetrates its butt crack, but it just seems pointless.