tvashtarkatena

comparing what we did to Iraq to pre revolutionary America is...imaginative.

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Thanks for reading all my stuff, Dwayner! And remember folks, as Dwayner says: Don't be antagonistic!

I am interested in this part of your statement. It doesn't seem to fit with the rest of what you say. By saying that we have "not allowed" a people their own revolution is an inheirently patriarchal stance. (Please forgive my crappy spelling, I am too lazy to spell check.) If a person really does see another group as or another individual as self-determining, then that person cannot assume that have the ability to override that self-determination. In other words, we Westerners cannot take away something which we do not own and cannot control from someone else. The fact that we seem to think so speaks only to our egos. We, too, were once a colonial abomination. We fought. Other countries got involved on many different levels, but we still did our thing, right? Ultimately, no one "allowed" us to do anything nor did anyone "take away" anything from us. That's because it is no more possible to take away something that is self-generated than it is to make or destroy mass or energy. The desire to be in control of one's own life is an immutable element in the human nature; and although an individual will die in pursuit of that self determination, the desire itself will always remain. So I guess all I am saying is that I don't believe that Iraq's revolution is over. It would be easier to believe that if anything, that revolution is just starting. It can take a long time to get past the humiliation of being invaded and occupied by a foreign power. So much better if that step is never taken. Recognition of this isn't patronizing, it's just recognizing a fundamental aspect of human nature. I could agree with that. Although there are "benefits" as well (if you can call them that). For example, having an external threat can act as a powerful catalyst to internal unification. It helps people ban together and forget their infighting. It might also help a group really examine and define who they are and what they want. It forces them to declare that to others. What you said was that their unity and strength has been taken away forever. I just think that is a bit strong. If that external threat completely destroys your society, however, that's usually a recipe for chaos and civil war. Hence, Iraq. I never said their unity and strength had been taken away forever - I said the chance for their own revolution, and the unifying pride that comes with that, is gone forever. Two very different statements. It's kind of like living with an abuser. Yeah, the parts of you that survive might be 'stronger' for it, or you just might remain really fucked up; however it turns out, it's just way better if it never happened.

I am interested in this part of your statement. It doesn't seem to fit with the rest of what you say. By saying that we have "not allowed" a people their own revolution is an inheirently patriarchal stance. (Please forgive my crappy spelling, I am too lazy to spell check.) If a person really does see another group as or another individual as self-determining, then that person cannot assume that have the ability to override that self-determination. In other words, we Westerners cannot take away something which we do not own and cannot control from someone else. The fact that we seem to think so speaks only to our egos. We, too, were once a colonial abomination. We fought. Other countries got involved on many different levels, but we still did our thing, right? Ultimately, no one "allowed" us to do anything nor did anyone "take away" anything from us. That's because it is no more possible to take away something that is self-generated than it is to make or destroy mass or energy. The desire to be in control of one's own life is an immutable element in the human nature; and although an individual will die in pursuit of that self determination, the desire itself will always remain. So I guess all I am saying is that I don't believe that Iraq's revolution is over. It would be easier to believe that if anything, that revolution is just starting. It can take a long time to get past the humiliation of being invaded and occupied by a foreign power. So much better if that step is never taken. Recognition of this isn't patronizing, it's just recognizing a fundamental aspect of human nature.

Same joke? Really? Like I said, one moving part.

Yup. It's amazing these guys haven't figured KKK out yet...he's only got, like, one moving part.

That link you provided shows Canada having a higher debt per capita than the US.

Well, I'm not the one claiming clairvoyance, I am? If you believe that visiting Egypt makes you smarter, you'd do well to buy a ticket as soon as you can.

Right over his head again. The more I interact with you, the dumber you seem.

More video here from the opposition leader's FB page (love the modern world!)...and comments, if you read Farsi or Arabic. Mousavi's FB page

BTW, for the record, I've known that something big was going to happen in Egypt for 20 years now. I just didn't know exactly what or when.

It wouldn't be the first time 'lesser' nations have taught us a thing or two about respect for human rights. Slavery and torture come to mind....

You're AMAZING!

Town Hall is one of the things I love most about this city. Great lectures by renowned authors, artists, adventurers and scientists...$5 at the door. Schedule

Unless you're ready to roll over for the duration, try a two step program: 1) make one thing better 2) repeat

NYT front page: Iranians throwing rocks at riot cops and torching vehicles in downtown Tehran. One of the few regimes that competes with the Bush administration for bad ideas, bluster, bullshit, and brutality.

I do tend to grow on people. I don't know about you and me, though. There's a level of stupid below which I don't have a lot of patience.

"never the obvious call"? I'd say it's fairly obvious on this one. if ET showed up (ask tvash) and saw the carnage that US foreign policy has bequeathed upon the world, there wouldn't be much room for equivocation. but before you get all wound up: other countries have fucked shit up too! amazing! no self-hate needed. but you are right about the sociopathy charge: i think psychopathy is more fitting, with a touch of psychosis. i mean, check it out: george bush all of a sudden starts believing in a guy who claimed to talk to god some 2,000 years ago. ok, so this part i'm cool with; i think i've talked to god too! but here's the hard part: this 2,000 year old god-talker named jesus said hey humanoids, love each other. blessed are the peace-makers. god says to chill out and turn the other cheek. if you do anything , at least don't hurt others. so here's this self-proclaimed born-again christian who has taken jesus the peace-monger as his personal saviour and unequivocal leader , yet somehow finds the capacity to attack a defenseless country with the largest most sophisticated army in the history of mankind, KILLING HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE. if the above does not fit the diagnostics of psychosis and psychopathy, then the terms are meaningless and entirely political in nature. By your argument, Lincoln, Truman and FDR are all psychopaths. You have the historical sense of a planarian.

Actually, what the Tea Baggers are focused on right now are social conservative proposals to limit abortion, discriminate against gays, and further marginalized the poor via over 500 such proposals nationwide. It's just Newt Gingrich 2.0. Not much of a serious effort to reduce military spending or end the drug war, though...ya know, while were on the subject of hyper-expensive boondoggles.

Kinda like the Iraqi insurgency being an irrational kneejerk of rabid Islamic kooks... "Sure, we fired 50,000 'Baathists' (mostly teachers, engineers, n other skilled folks who were forced to join), the entire Iraqi army, then focused on a flat tax and privatization in a destroyed society with 40% unemployment, no basic services, no security, an infrastructure ruined by US bombs and the looting we stood by and watched...holy shit, where DID THIS INSURGENCY COME FROM?!!!" Oh, sorry, it's the apologist in me. I probably just hate America. Hey, did you guys know that Egypt is mostly Muslim?!!!

Protests now brewing or happening in Palestine, Jordan, Yemen, Bahrain, Iran, Sudan, Algeria....

An interesting supplement to Raindawg's 3 decades of expertise: The making of two Arab democratic revolutions Probably a good thing that our CIA can't find its ass from a hole in the ground...the invariably attempt to dismantle movements against their cronies such as this one in the unlikely event that they actually find out about them.

The GF has a pile of good reads lying fallow.