Wastral

Try posting actual reasons where you would actually ever use a drop loop system instead of calling names. In your own post you put that they hardly ever use the drop loop system. As I pointed out there is ALWAYS a faster and safer way to do crevasse rescue in all situations than the drop loop system. Once again, you guys never state how, why, or where you would use a Drop loop system. Just claim others teach it and its good. I have run into many tweedle-des and tweedle-dums in the mountaineers etc who were "teachers". Why would anyone take someones word on something just because they say so and happen to "teach" something. Use your brain, don't be lazy, think it through for yourselves. Just because a teacher says something doesn't mean they know anything, just means they can repeat what they have been told. Its a proven fact that women can hold multiconversations at once wheras most men cannot. Thus, once again I stated fact, while you guys turn to name calling. Brian

Efficiency as regards to pullies is as others have pointed out, High School physics. Ok background: 2 types of friction 1) Static friction 2) Rolling friction 3) Static friction is always greater than rolling friction When talking pulley efficiency, carabiner or pullies with or without bearings, we are talking about rolling friction. Static friction is when the system is at rest. Static friction is not all that big of a deal in Crevasse rescue because the rope is a dynamic rope and stretches allowing different parts of the system to move at different speeds at startup, obviously if you pull at a constant speed this is a mute point. But, one never pulls at a constant speed. You pull in herks and jerks. In otherwords, the guy in the hole is not moving even though you are pulling on the rope at the begining of your pull cycle. Thus, you jump past the static friction problem at pts. 1 and 2. Where static friction is a concern, is at pulley #3 where the force is the highest. A bearing pulley will ALWAYS have far lower static and rolling friction. Thus, why I stated that if you yave two pullies they should be at points 1 and 3. Point 1 to overcome efficiency ripple. Point 3 to overcome Static friction startup problems. Brian PS. I have run into lots of Tweedle-de and tweedle-dumbs. PPS. I put in my replies because some completely ill informed guys replied to my posts trying to postulate that the drop loop system is actually rational. As I rationally proved, its not. Didnt see you castigating them, since you agree with them for some reason which you never give. Just think that reading my posts is like talking to women. I reply to more than 1 post at a time since I dont check every 5 minutes for replies.

Well, when a kid from High School with 0 job experience can make $50k a year in the car and aerospace industry, while a college engineering graduate makes the same, something is wrong... Its called union Yes, I agree, litigation is also a huge concern. As far as I am concerned, the judge should be allowed to rule against the litigator for twice the damages they were seeking from the defendant when its clear its a complete BS case. Like the McDonalds coffee case and umpteen millions of other cases. It would clear up our legal system in a jiffy. Brian

Havent had a trade surplus since 1975. We have been using inflation and a huge national debt to cover this fact. The chickens have finally come home to roost. Look what a good 2000 square foot house cost in 1975. $35,000 Now, its $200,000. That is a 5x to 6x inflation in 30 years. Pretty sad. Food prices have been subsidized by the feds, thus they have remained low. In other words, they inflated the dollar so we keep buying less and less even though our consumption(imports) from outside of the USA are increasing. Its called an unstable system. Just a matter of time before the chickens start crapping all over the parade. Brian

Any pulley system. If the input pulley(where you pull from) has a 0% efficiency(stuck, not moving), then 0 force gets applied to the second pulley because the first pulley is not rolling, thus the rope would be sliding. Thus, horrible efficiency. A good example of this is the "revolver" pulley on a carabiner that they sell in local shops. It will spin under light loads, but under a real load the shaft bends and it locks up, making it a horrible idea to use as a second "pulley" for crevasse rescue. Brian

A cheep hotel? Yea, my bro and I found on on our way back from Waddinton. About 3 miles from the ferry right on the road to the ferry. Great service, food very close by for breakfast, but the bedding wasn't up to par. Cost? $0 Our battery died on the way back and we got to check out the opulent palace of a gas station. Begging charge time from different customers all night long so that in the morning we were able to get across the border and buy a new battery. Fun Times! Party at the Gas station, oh yea.

The demlicans gave us the budget for the last umpteen years giving us our huge debt without even counting "solcial security" and medicair which are completely unfunded. Where has the debt come from? The fact that we have been spending money to keep the good times rolling to cover our $500Billion a year trade deficit as a nation. That means that for every man woman and child in USA we throw: $500B/300M = approxamitely $1666 dollars a person thrown OUT of the country. That money has to come from somewhere. Keep throwing money away to China/India, guess what, its a depression in USA and China/India is booming. Get rid of regulations like OSHA and unions which create GIANT burdens on ALL businesses to do anything. How much does it cost to change a light bulb after getting 3 permits(bribes) and how many of your own workers who can't work because there is no light? Instead of just changing the light bulb yourself? Yea, that is why businesses are RUNNING from the USA. Not taxes, REGULATIONS. Can't fart or pick your nose without a permit and 5 "safety" inspectors checking out your technique. Brian

If 0% efficient at pulley where you pull, then nothing happens. Thus, your best pulley must be put here cuz the amount of force transfered to the next pulley will be lower. Diff subject: 2 person teams on a 60m rope: 40 feet apart on center of rope 200 feet -40 feet = 160 feet divide by 2 for coils over shoulder = 80 feet If the other guy is in the hole how are you going to put a 40 foot loop down and back for 80 feet total loop length AND create a z-pulley system? Ain't gonna happen period. You have to be FAR closer than this for the drop loop system to have a chance. Around 25 feet, meaning 0 reaction time and you had better be going over Minor crevasses. If a snow bridge collapses on 25 intervals between climbers, you will BOTH be in the hole. Diff subject: If you are going over a glacier with a 100lb girlfriend and you are seriosly injured and can't prussic out, then her building 3:1 won't work due to inefficiency and a 6:1 won't work due to rope stretch. She won't have the strength to stretch the rope pull some up and move the prussic down the rope to hold the stretch. Besides majority of drag is from the rope drag over the lip not the pulley system. At least there aren't many real glaciers in Washington State for you guys to fall into because if you were on a rope team of 3 you would be trying to set up 3 different systems and by the time you got it figured out, the guy would be frozen to death in the hole. This is a very real concern, not just sarcasm. One should think about it before the crap hits the fan, talk it out in the group first. Brian

??? The diagram is obvious. Read what I wrote. Most efficient spot for a pulley is where the load is the greatest and coincidentally where the rope is moving the slowest. Simple physics, pt (3) for those who can't read what I wrote above. Its a dumb scenario which should never be used and was only thought up because somoene forgot that if an uninjured clmber is in a hole they pull themselves out. You sure don't pull them out which is what these people are thinking because they are used to pulling "uninjured" people out of crevasse rescue practice scenarios and got bored and dumb in the process. My whole point is that this "scenario" is pointless and should never be used because either the person in the hole is able to get themselves out via prussics or can't due to cut in, overhang, or injury. In which case this scenario is once again, useless and requires TONS of free rope which you don't have. Why don't you have it? Because the most efficient way to haul someone out of a hole is to put the pulleys as far as possible away from eachother. Which means you won't have an extra 50 feet to drop down to the fallen climber. Brian

Well, Its far faster and safer to let the guys on top who aren't injured to set up a 2:1 or a 3:1. The only time you set up a system is when the person IS injured. Not to mention that this system requires a TON of rope length to pull the guy out. I will bet hard money that you never have the rope length to do this set up unless the rear guy falls in the hole on a 3 or more person team, requiring all the other guys to get out of the rope to aquire enough rope length. = dangerous and stupid and more time consuming. :: You sure as heck won't have it if you are on a 2 person team. In short, its a stupid way to do it because it takes more time, and on top of that it only works when the guy isn't injured. Sorry, no, I would never trust the injured person to set up a 3:1. If I trusted them that much, let them prussic out. Its faster and simpler. On top of those concerns; no sense learning 3 ways to do something when 1 way is simpler/faster and can be used in All situations. :tup: Most people don't even know how to do the 1 normal way! The (kiSS) principle notice which letters are capitalized keep-It-SIMPLE-STUPID Under stress people become stupid, thus keep it simple. Brian I am explaining because this is the NEWBIE forum and I have helped many newbies learn crevasse rescue and learning 3 ways is NOT the way to go about doing something. They can't even do the 1 normal way!

Uh, to mrporwit. Your article showed a standard arrangement. It was most efficient because it was the slowest moving part of the system. NOT AS you postulated because the most rope goes through it. In otherwords, you traded speed for force. Force times speed = power, thus the efficiencies are multipled greatest where the Force is highest, and the Speed is lowest. Brian

Oh yea, if you actually do a correct z-pulley system, then once again attach your most efficient pulley at the slowest moving point where the force is the highest. Otherwise its far far faster to prussik yourself out of the hole if you can't simply be pulled out to start with. Brian

oops forgot the last few lines were still there. Was going to get really "technical" then decided the heck with it, this system is BS from the get go, so why bother with all the math? Brian

To start with, this system only works when the person in the hole is not INJURED because they have to attack that pulley to their harness. Thus, is an idiotic way to "rescue" someone who is perfectly able to rescue themselves by simply using prussics!!! Which is far faster and you don't have to set up stupid pully systems to start with!!! DUH!!! So, in my "humble" opinion, this type of Crevasse rescue is BS from the get go in case you didn't figure it out already... The "answer" to your pnderances is below... Ok guys, think of it this way, where is the slowest part moving? Pt. (3). Thus, it has the highest mechanical advantage/gear ration. Thus, it has the highest Force(load). Thus, inefficiencies in the pulley will be multiplied at this pt. So, if you were going to waste your time setting this system up with a perfectly able person in the hole put the pulley at pt. (3)... yea ok. Do you really trust somoene to hook it up correctly who is on a GIGANTIC adrenaline HIGH? Brian BUT, we have friction. 1) Snow 2) Inefficiencies in the pullies Since you only have 1 pulley

Quick thoughts. If you sweat a lot like me taking synthetic base layer is the only way to go since Iit transports sweat much quicker than wool. Try not to sweat =)). Even when I try not to, I still sweat. Wool is far superior though. If you can manage it take wool and be grateful. Sheep are great... Brian

How many miles did you paddle a day? Sounds like you needed a super wide rain hat... Brian

Did you find my brothers down coat in that gulley gaining Challengers shoulder??? Dropped it down there, brand new, never could find it... grrrr Brian

Tvas. Getting back to your sailing questions. 1) I am a complete sailing novice so don't take anything I say as true. Boating is a bit different, but not much. Leeward, rearward, um ??? got me on the terms. I know bow, stern, port, and starboard, and I think I am doing well!!! 2) The name of the kayak "race" is the Everglades Challenge. 300 miles long. Details at http://www.watertribe.com/ I can take 2 people and all of their gear anywhere with a 120 mile radius of a car/beach landing site. Let me know if anyone wants this. Its beautiful and a heck of a lot cheeper than a helicopter ride. Brian

erm what u said is true of ALL single walled "tents" etc. As for snow, they are fine as. Wind is a different issue which they DO have a distinct problem with. The brand name Tarptents are made in Utah. Personally, shelters for 1 person are pointless, just go with a bivy. Brian

Definetly true mattp and Denalidave. tarps below timberline Rule. You get to stand/sit instead of crawl/lay around. Tarptents have their place though. I only bought one for longer trips 4+ days where a tarp-only or no shelter option would be rather problematic. In a bivy its really hard to play cards in the rain, change clothes, and not go insane when its been raining for 40 hours straight... The problems, except the freestanding part you stated aren't problems in a tarptent. The maker has an ingenious design for the condensation issue via #1 1) Condensation goes down the inside of tent and out through the netting which is then sown at a 45 degree angle towards the bottom of a "tub" floor. In otherwords, condensation cannot enter onto the "sown-in-floor" since there is a 2" lip all the way around the "floor". 2) Horizontal rain is no problem since you can close the flaps over the front opening. We camped for 2 days on a 25 degree heather "bench" in the pickets since it was the only "flat" spot we could find and we had torential rain, sleet, wind and no water came in the front. Instead due to bad placement we got wet by having to have our sleeping bags up against the sides... Since we were avoiding large rocks and heather hillocks. I still don't take anything for weekend trips unless I expect rain, let the sleeping bags get wet and save my knees an extra 2lbs of wear and tear. =) Of course Your mileage may vary. Free standing is rather nice though... Brian

We could have a naming contest! Well my brother doesn't have vacation time for this year, but I do... If anyone wants to split gas money and wants to climb Jubilee or anything in the Whitemantle/Waddington range let me know. Heck, if you want a boat ride up there let me know!!! I would go back in a blink. Anyone know what the site ratio's your posted pictures down to? I have seen larger pictures on trip reports and ours came out rather smallish. I assume this is because I shrunk them down to start with and then CC.com shrunk them again when placed in a TR for people with slower connections. Yea, my bro "guessed" my super duper "secret" password. Its not hard. =) Brian

Bro again... (he needs to pick a password that's a bit harder) Picture of the engine mount we made - it worked great... If we had to do this over we would build it a bit different(mounts to the kayak). One of those things that the design kinda progressed from one thing to another which equals compromise... So, next time it would come out a lot cleaner, as far as mounting to the kayak. We may end up reworking it to make the whole thing cleaner if we build another kayak... and the ghetto boat moves on, but hey it sure beats the heck out of paddling all that distance not to mention the time needed and the fact that I would run out of vacation time.

Ah, yes I stole my brother's identity! This is his bro... The real reason we needed to find land in the 4 footers is because we had a little incident... we were going along with the waves getting bigger and bigger when we were in these monster 4 foot waves capping over us. All of the sudden we hear this loud CRACK! The sound of wood being splintered into a million little tiny fragments --not what you want to hear when you are sitting in a wood fiberglass boat -- ...the immediate thoughts are "O crap, we just lost the aft end of our kayak!" followed by a quick glance at the shore and estimating how far of a swim it would be and how much should we try to save and how are we going to get up the cliff face when we get there and are we going to die of hypothermia even if we do get there... After what seems like eternity, we finally realize that we are still floating, but something appears to be floating in the water. Turns out the water had come up under our kayak paddle that we strapped to the side of the kayak and snapped it completely in half. We were a little bit more tense after this. On the way out we were up at 4:00 am and going so that we wouldn't get into waves like this again, thus the comment about no wind... There was wind in the afternoons. Ah, he missed three more good pictures...

Yes, creek mouths are basically the only spot one can stop and pull yourself out. We did that on the way back at a spot with giant 3000 foot cliff on the other side. Ashulte creek or something like it. We got the wind the first day out from the ocean side though. Not the adiabatic side. Brian

On a side note, when Isreal pulled out their citizens from Gaza (2 years ago???)leaving everything to the Palestinians what happened? They looted, burned, and destroyed everything instead of moving their citizens into those compounds and using their greenhouses and fields to grow their own food. Those fields and greenhosue stand abandoned, while they sit and complain about their "horrible situation" Things they could have done to improove their situation they havent done. The people elected a group of guys who demand the total destruction of a group of people(jews). That says they agree with them. Hamas shoots from schools and hospitals. You expect Isreal not to attack back? Hamas wants casaulties of children and women, to publisize to the world. Never saw the world media in an uproar when Hamas was shooting missiles into Isreal and killing its citizens. But oh horrors, how dare Isreal shoot back. HYPOCRITS! Brian