JosephH

In this case, given it seems inextricably linked with bolting, I'd say 'sport tooling' would be a better description. And to some extent Kevin has a point - clipping bolts from a somewhat different form of aid may be fun (and called 'dry tooling'), but unless you just happen to be doing it to getting to some ice it is a fairly contrived activity. That's not to say it can't be fun, but let's agree to call a spade a spade - it's pretty much a bastard child of aid-with-ice-tools crossed with sport climbing.

Both, don't waste your energy feeling sorry for me, feel sorry for the people around the world subjugated and slaughtered under the guise of gods of all stripe. As far as I'm concerned, all gods are simply tools of those that aspire to power, to divide, to control, and to manipulate populations. Few if any gods have ever escaped this fate.

Yep, I simply don't like having one of the things I love most contaminated by one of the things I find consider THE most despicable and loathesome trait of humanity - religion. Does that sound harsh? Bummer...

T0.5 at best on the second coming...sad really.

"When climbing His Glory, don't judge His servants who enjoy HIS rock with you" Deep breath, exhale. Jesus H. Christ - not again! This is exactly the sort of bullshit that elicits said rage. Personally, I consider your god a genocidal warmonger and his acolytes folks with a poor grip on human history - please take him elsewhere, he's already done enough damage here.

SportHill XC pants with a pair of Roffe fleece tights under them work for me on cold days on rock. Don't know about the euro flair aspects of them...

Cannon SD800 and a LowePro Rezo 10 case. Use a retractable keychain deal from a locksmith shop to leash it to some part of you...

This is good timeless advice to consider before putting up an FA regardless of the area if you're new to it...

Tell that to Alan Watts and he will kick you ass. Again, context is everything...

Headpointing is personal. You could head point a 5.6.... Kevin, Avi, et al - In discussions like this it's often the case where tactics and ethics end up in a lexical blender. Headpointing is a tactic - until it gets used in an FA and then, as several have pointed out, it then becomes a matter of ethics relative to the protection a route sports or doesn't. If an FA gets put up as an X-rated route because it was rehearsed to death on a top rope then, hell, that's a pretty different deal. But even there context counts. In the UK that's the tradition in places; don't bolt - headpoint. So they have incredibly bold leads, but with the understanding you should get it wired on a TR before attempting the send on lead. The implication there is different areas have different ethics around fixed protection which in turn drive the the tactics typically employed at a crag. If the ethic is no or minimal fixed pro then you can expect to see a lot of headpointing and it should be regarded as both ethical and 'the way'. On the otherhand, if you put up an X-rated sport route that you did a headpoint on after 50 top rope sends then you're probably going to catch a world of shit. Ethics, tactics, and style typically all develop togeather over time to become the 'traditions' of an area or crag. Ethics questions relative to fixed pro need to be evaluated in that full context and history.

I agree, but be aware that sometimes leads to R and X rated routes as you sometimes end up in situations where you make do on the FA or FFA and that's how it ends up (and I'm ok with that).

Oh, and so long as this isn't the case: Then I think this is way off the mark: I have no problem whatsoever with a hard and interesting trad route sporting 'life threatening' runouts or sequences. Sometimes that ends up what you're dealt and (given you're on a groundup lead) you just deal or you don't. If you aren't prepared to deal in a little spice and the odd 'R' or 'X' rated moves as trad grades get harder then you might want to reconsider what it's all about for you. Putting up FA's groundup onsight sometimes puts you in difficult circumstances and you have to be prepared to make do and survive.

I agree more or less with that... it's a nice ideal anyway.... I think most would agree headpointing is considered fair trad tactics, but maybe only if you're climbing on Grit, and maybe not on long routes. At any rate Sonnie Trotter's ascent of Cobra Crack could be considered a headpoint....he top-roped it for a couple years before the send. Anyway....so then if you can't free it ground up.....leave it be? avitripp, what follows is more of a generalized rant and not aimed specifically at your comments even if I use them as a leaping off point... Headpointing on short, extremely stout climbs, like 13's and 14's can be argued as necessary in the same way as preplacing gear on insanely difficult lines can be. But the nature of climbing has always been one of mimicry and a complete lack of of moderation. By that I mean techniques at first used only at the vanguard of difficulty have a peculiar way of trickling down to be applied to 5.7s in a hurry. That's how things end up being 'considered fair trad tactics' not just at the cutting edge and hard FA's, but at all grades of difficulty and on existing routes. Such mass wobbling has also led to '[trad] climbing' now often being referred to as 'adventure climbing' and for common ethics from back in the day to now be reduced to 'a nice ideal anyway'. Hey, it's still how I put up routes and I don't consider it an 'ideal', unless of course you spell it 'I deal'. The whole notion of pre-cleaning, preview rapping, and rehearsing routes or dogging up them just isn't 'trad' in my book - far from it. You may be placing gear, but you're sport climbing with it and hence the designation of such routes as [bastard] 'sprad' routes. I just think employing 'sprad' tactics on a trad line under .13s is pretty much an attempt to do one thing and call it another. That or an insidiously unconcious and viral spread of gym tactics brought outside. In general I think the very worst of the 'sprad' tactics is dogging/sport climbing on gear placements. Ethics aside, it's a dangersous practice and more accidents are happening every year from the practice. From my perspective as an old guy, the defining difference between trad and sport isn't gear vs. bolts - it's groundup vs. dogging. If you're ratcheting your way up a line you may be using gear, but you're sport climbing. I'd very much encourage trad climbers to not dog on gear, but in most cases go back to the belay, pull the rope and try again - reserve the gear strickly for falling and fall rather than hang if that's what it comes down to. My two bits worth anyway...

My main ethics comments would be to skip all that red/heading business and just lead it ground/belay up and also clean it on lead, whether on aid or free. Leave all those manky sport shennanigans at home if this is a multi-pitch trad, not sprad, route.

I take it that's an affirmative you're a contract merc at this point - who with? I have no issue with you personally with regard to this, but it is terrible policy and incredibly bad for the services...

Rednose, WTF? Who are we talking to here if not you? And why are we talking to them this way? Have them sign up. Are they uniformed or a merc? Sounds like a merc when he's talking 'my principal' (mercs providing security is yet another sign of just how f#cked up this 'war' is). Whomever it is, our troops have been fighting more or less non-stop on Haifa Street just outside what's still called the 'Green Zone' in the press here at home. Regardless of the current nomenclature, when we're fighting down the street from our HQ, it doesn't mean we're winning - it means we're losing. And I don't need to be there to understand what's going on, I spent '72 and '73 in Vietnam and it's not exactly rocket science to figure out the military is getting completely f#cked again in Iraq. Anyway, get an account if we're going to do this...

Ken, good for you for making it down and getting out so much of late. I think you and others added a bit of motivation for Jim to do a big final push as well - it's been great to hear about him getting out howling everyday.

Me too...

Hemp, that was me and Ken (112) when you got to the p2 belay. It was ok further up, and the wind isn't really that big a deal from the tree up until you meet the SE corner ridge and then it's turbo time for sure up the ridge ramp. Going up the ramp in those conditions you have to put in enough gear to keep your rope from flying out into space and hanging up on something over the edge which would really suck. If you don't want to deal with the corner ridge then do Uprising and finish on the trail. Overall I strive to climb at the same pace with the same pro regardless of the conditions so long as we're not talking really wet. You kind of just have to get into the wildness of the cold and wind, but I find I oddly derive a margin of safety just from keeping my rythmn, pace, and pro all the same. You also have to work out a system that works for you which allows you to stay reasonably warm in order to keep that mindset going.

I didn't say Reardon died, I said I think he's ended up owned by his soloing instead of the other way around. Hershey on the otherhand is stone cold dead.

I think too there is the ownership aspect of soloing as in - do you own it or does it own you? I think guys like Barber and Bachar owned their soloing whereas guys like Hershey and Reardon ended up being owned. I don't have much respect for the latter regardless of the person's climbing accomplishments.

I personally rate this up there with the very worst experiences you can have climbing - there is truly nothing worse than watching someone sketch a solo, other then them botching one all together...

Mark said it was an accepted part of climbing. I dont remember he mentioning culture. Same deal, people doing it makes it part of the culture, though acceptance in my book is that each climber accept it for themselves or not which is pretty much the only ones it really matters to until a soloist inconveniently craters or puts someone else at risk. Look at it as you please, but both statements are essentially true. And I think that to acheive a high level of multipitch trad climbing you're going to have to find some comfort level with at least a degree of free soloing be it by that name or not. If you mean 'broad acceptance' by a majority of climbers in terms of 'approval' - well, we all know that's never going to happen. Customs, cultures, and acceptance differs from crag-to-crag, some places it's never really seen, others it's rampant.

Soloing and soloing past roped strangers are different deals. Most folks on a rope are not going to get it and they may or may not be gracious about it. Probably depends a lot on the area and route. To some extent it's common sense like, say jumping on p2 of the corner between a belayer and a leader, would be hard to categorize as anything but rude unless you asked for permission and received it...

It's always been a part of the culture as Mark says - we were doing it back in the '70s in SoIll and most folks we knew in other areas did it to one degree or another as well. I still get the pull to do it, and would love to do YW, but I've promised my wife and daughter I won't, so I don't [by and large]. I make do with my roped soloes and it's kinda the same deal, but not really. Oh well, I had my days at it, and don't mind keeping to my word to my girls...