dylan_taylor

I have my popcorn and soda pop now. Stephen, thank you for the useful and informative explanation. I remain a believer. I don't know where P-Bob ever got off on claiming that screamers and 10 degree upward angles are "myths". The evidence seems rather empirical to me.

I use them all the time for rock climbing. I weigh about 200 Lbs and I climb a bit in Eldo, so I place lots of little RP's, and I clip lots of antique fixed relics. I also climb in the desert and Black Canyon a bit, and I use them a lot there when clipping dodgy sandy funk or RP's in rotten pegmatite. Two short screamers is usually all I carry, and I either use them when clipping mank close to the belay or clipping RP nests anywhere else. It is true that the fall factor tends to be higher close to the anchor, but fall factors can also be disturbingly high on long stretcher pitches with lots of rope drag. Less rope is available to catch the fall, so it may be nice to have something else in the system to extend the period of time that fall energy is being accomodated. I never would have imagined screamers would become such a "controversial" topic. Obviously, they are specialized pieces of equipment that only come in handy in certain situations, but if you have them in those situations - you're psyched! They work. I watched one save a friends ass in squamish a couple of years ago.

The tying in system for glacier travel is designed to deal with crevasse falls and low-load sliding falls that can be arrested with self arrest or running belays. In none of these situations will loads be very high - or as high as they would be with a conventional lead fall in a vertical realm. Lets say I wanted to climb the N ridge of baker. Upon arriving at the steeper ice after a couple of hours of glacier travel, I would either completely re-rig my glacier travel tie-in system, or (more likely) I would allready be tied in (not clipped in) to the end of the rope, and for the glacier travel bits before and after the pitching out (leading) section, I would kiwi in towards my partner, clip into a hard knot, and add my prusiks. When steep ground presents itself, I can undo the knot-on-a-bight, and quickly undo my kiwis, while remaining tied in. On steep glacier routes, a lead fall could be possible, but the point I am trying to make is that it should not occur when you are tied in normal glacier-travel mode. On technical terrain, I switch the rope to employ it for steeper technical climbing.

A tied runner shouldn't absorb any more energy thru knot-tightening unless you aren't tightening your knots enough in the first place, and even then the energy absorption is pretty insignificant. The time it takes for a knot to get tighter is a fraction of the amount of time that a screamer or load limiting device contributes to the equation. A properly tightened knot, or a knot that's been fallen on allready will accomodate almost 0% of the load. Besides, regular 9/16th webbing is pretty stretchy anyway. It's rupture point at its tensile limit is somewhere around 40%. That's what can make tightening slacklines so interesting. I agree with a lot of the statements above about using tied 9/16" slings over the shoulder. It comes in handy in the mountains when you have to bail. One of my first climbing partners was (and still is) a total ludite. He had a rack of sporty euro-draws made out of tied webbing. The webbing was sunbleached, and the knots were incredibly abbraded from getting dragged under tension across prickly granite and sandstone. Although none ever broke, we celebrated when he finally retired the relics.

Thanks for the clarification. I too agree that a belay loop ought to be used for belaying - for all the reasons folks have listed above. Gear failure is the least of my worries, however.

Why would anyone tie into a biner through their harness? I assume you mean clip in? As in glacier travel? In that case a lead fall shouldn't be generated anyway. But regardless, this is why I clip into two lockers instead of one when I am walking along on a glacier in my alpine bod harness. As a bonus, the gates placed down and out in this configuration are less likely to rattle into the open position. They would be more likely to do so when clipped into a belay loop for glacier travel, do to their increased freedom to flop around. I have absolutely no fear that the (relatively) minor loads generated in a crevasse fall would be enough to break two triaxially loaded petzl attaches, let alone one. 6kn, after all, is still quite a bit of force to generate on a harness in any real life glacier travel or expedition scenario.

Two years ago we were able to place a couple of screws, a green camalot, and some nuts in the couloir leading up to the 17,000 foot balcony camp from the standard upper rib highcamp at around 16,400. That was the most technical part, and it isn't any steeper than 60 deg with a couple of 4th class boulder problems. In hindsight, I would have ditched the cam, since long slings placed over boulders can give you most all the security you need to belay someone over a bit of the easy but occasionally tricky terrain. The part from 17,000 to 18,000 on the crest of the rib is gravy. From 18,000 to the football field (safer to traverse left across orient express - thus avoiding cornice directly above you) it is easy moderatley steep (never more than 35 to 40 deg, plus or minus) snow travel . This is the most dangerous part, especially if you choose to descend the rib back to your tent, rather than carrying a camp up and over. Several parties have had serious and tragic epics here, while returning down the orient, addled and fatigued from their summit climb. Take a few pickets (3-4 minimum), and if your team chooses to remain roped up, use them. You won't catch a fall there by self arrest alone. If you don't have the decency to use running belays, then by all means unrope and solo thru this section so that rescuers have fewer bodies to retrieve. Last year, in early or mid june the conditions in the upper rib couloir sucked, because it had been dumping copious amounts of snow on the rib. we suffered bad luck on the lower rib and got stuck in a (poor) bergschrund for a few days, with the tents getting repeatedly buried by frequent sluffs from a mega-storm. When we reached the upper rib camp, we waded through hip deep snow for a while before deeming the route out of condition for a few more days. Had we had time to wait, I think that once the snow consolidated, it would have made for rapid progress. Beware of avy conditions in the lower orient on your way up from the 14k camp. It can be scarey for a few days after a storm.

So did any of the full strength parts of the cam actually fail (shaft, axel, lobes, or sling) or did the cam placement fail do to whatever the circumstances were (rock qual, wierd placement, etc...). Sounds like those little old cam stops (made out of rolled steel) failed too?

Which swages failed? What kind of cam was it?

Hah! I agree completely. I have a hard time believing that a cam has ever failed during a normal climbing scenarion. Rigid friends over horizontal edges don't count. Dudes with crowbars snapping stems of hoplessly stuck cams doesn't count either.

Indeed, knot failure is unrealistic in normal climbing scenarios. A recent study showed that poorly dressed knots are not significantly weaker than well dressed knots (I'll try and find a link, but the info came from the AMGA). In fact, an unfinished figure 8 (the tail was not brought back through the side of the 8 away from the climber) failed rather close to the same force that a properly tied figure 8 did. Thus, when you tie your knot correctly, you are backing it up - no dinky little backup knot needed. I'm not much of a sport climber, but I've found that when I take a significant fall on a figure 8 knot, it is still plenty easy enough to untie if it is dressed properly. Also, fig 8's are easy for your partner to check. They are symmetrical, whereas bowlines look a bit different when you flip the knot over. However, Double bowlines shine when used for taking dozens of little, harsh sporto falls on a soft rope. Whatever - if you can't tie a knot tie a lot.

pig pen in josh

I've been out of the loop for over a year. What was the latest explanation? OK, oops, my previous post regarding vantage was written in ignorance. I did a search for the vantage accident, and I was re-reminded that no cam broke anyway - only a biner. So I guess the mention of a broken cam was irrelevant anyway? -as far as trusting dropped cams.

Honey, look at his welded knot! That is so darling.

If you email the factory, they`ll tell you what their lawyers tell them to tell you. And guess what that will be. The cam that broke in vantage was an anomaly because a static rope was used to lead on, wasn't it? Or at least thats the rumor I heard. Mike, When I get up there this summer, lets take one of my old junk ropes and give that .75 a 400 foot F2 fall with your haulbag! It will be fun! We'll get some video!

I like Jahman on S.S. more too. The "10c" face on the topout of Jahman is rather trivial. A one move wonder at best. Its the ring-locks to tight-handies that you would want to worry about. It will feel 5.11 if you're not a crack climber. The smaller your hands are, the better. The traversy crux on the second (real) pitch is kind of wierd as well. The above gear suggestions are good beta. You can do Jahman in two pitches pretty easily, but belaying at the top of the sister squeeze might simplify things. Do the next pitch to the bolt anchor, then run the last two together. Don't get suckered into clipping the trashy bolt anchor right before the face climbing bit to the summit. If you're willing to run it out, the climbing 10 ft to the right of those anchors is super easy, and your rope will run straighter. Enyoy.

It seems like half the cams on my rack ought to have "black tape" on them but they are on my rack anyway and I've fallen a bunch of times on some of those pieces. A few of them are one's I found below el cap, etc... and several others have been dropped by either myself or my partner. Although there are no guarantees, since there is such little actual data on this subject, I'd say your cam is fine. What size is it? The bigger it is, the more concerned I would be, because the force on impact would be higher. Butt little cams I wouldn't even think twice about. I had a friend who was a metalurgist and hard climber till he was killed in a climbing accident (not from gear failure). He explained his whole philosophy of dropped gear to me in a very scientific way that I'll never be able to remember. The gist of it is that certain grades of aluminum are chosen by climbing equipment manufacturers because they are strong, light, and very ductile. Ductile metal, for one thing, is easy to shape and bend at room temperatures. Anything can behave elastically and rupture under enough stress, but the grades of aluminum used in climbing gear rarely ever see those levels of stress. On a cam that falls a long way, a lot of the stress is acomodated by ductile strain in the form of mushrooming at the corner. The danger spots in aluminum gear are where two kinds of metal meet under pressure, such as the steel pins driven into the gates of carabiners. Thats where lots of stress fractures are often found. The steel axel on a cam is not driven into the cam lobe under pressure. Its actually a loose fit, so I would think that cams have a lower risk, however, if I wanted to find a crack, thats where I would look - where the cam lobe meets the axel. The moral is, junk the gear if it stresses you out on lead. I'll use it. Climbing is all about managing risk in a physical world, but it is also, of course, about quieting the inner demons. If I have to think twice about any of my gear on lead, I junk it. But, its the soft goods that sketch me out the most. I am and always will be more afraid of failure of webbing or cord (because of hidden chemical damage, UV, or whatever) than I will be of failure of anything metal on my rack. They chose that metal for a reason. Its fucking durable.

Take it back to REI.

numbah ten, first two bolts, and the roof on natural log cabin.

I stand corrected.

"Good weather, bad weather - always good for climbing"!

But you are a banana!

Also, check out the aluminum ones from Trango. The strap on variety don't wear holes in the front of your tennies quite as bad as the stubais. http://www.trango.com/showitem.cfm?catnum=27&itemnum=164 You can also get them in the step-in or neumatic variety as well.

I use flukes as spoons for giant buckets of bean lard mulch.

I placed on on lead on the north ridge of Baker a couple years ago to protect steep ground near the summit. And I've placed it on "lead" several other times for running belays on rope teams of three or more (clients) - especially on steep terrain that traverses, or any terrain that traverses over crevasses. I felt really good about the placements usually. Also, I think it can make a decent stove platform and base for a megamid pole too.