archenemy

Small snippet from the article Thank you for posting that. I did miss that. Helps to shed a new light on that part of the situation. I don't agree with what she has done or what decisions she's made (IOW I wouldn't necessarily have made the same choices if they were before me); but again, anyone who is pure of deception please cast that stone. I admire those who can. I cannot. But we all live and learn. And maybe this is her learning. It is unfortunate that sometimes our biggest lessons come at the expense of others.

You have your thoughts on that, she and her husband have theirs. I have none b/c I have no children. I do know I have to trust that whatever agreements other couples come to, it is between them. And whomever reads the book about it.

You are making the assumption that they have not had this discussion. Or did I miss something in that article? They have not had sex for four years. I think the husband knows what is up, don't you? Where is the deception?

I just watched the Graduate recently. Remember the woman who seduced the protaganist? Married out of obligations. Sexless relationship with husband, etc. The movie is 40 years old. Nothing new. Just read War and Peace... well over 100 years old now. remember the character of Helene Bezukhova, wife of Pierre. Same old story. Nothing new. This is an old fucking story. Pun intended. Oh my gosh, you are so right. Those uppity girls already said their piece so they shout STFU and get in the kitchen. And those black folk should stop complaining too. And no one wants to hear from those choir boys anymore. It's all been said before, right? Well I see history as a trend; as a group of people insisting--over and over--on their rights. Maybe her rights are to talk about an arragement that you don't agree about. Maybe they are to make money off an obviously unpopular topic. Nothing like a woman who does not follow the sociosexual norms to bring out the absolute vitrol in others. Funny how on a thread where men bash this woman--to the point of calling her a cunt--I am the only one who gets told I have a chip on my shoulder about the opposite gender. I find it facinating and mildly amusing. you are very correct about the same old story. however it is one that needs to be told. In my oppionion staying in a partnership becuase of the children makes excellent sense financialy and interpersonaly. I can say that i have much happier much more fullfilling relationships now that i have my kids 50% of the time. Calling that partnership a marrige is where i think i dissagree. make a contract have a deal, but give eachother freedom to find love with out betrayal. This whole thing makes me really really sad. I feel bad for them because they are in a relationship that seems to be based on dishonesty. Sounds like their relationship is based on what they both think is best for their kids. Other parents may disagree, but their opinions don't really count in the end, do they? I believe in respecting parents' right to decide what they think is best for their own children. And I don't see a whole lot of dishonesty. She wrote a damn book about her most "secret" thoughts and feelings. Not exactly deceptive, is it? And although we all love to think that we have never committed any dishonestly (lies of commission or ommission) in our relationships, most of us have done so at one point or another during our lives. So he who has not, please cast the first stone.

I just watched the Graduate recently. Remember the woman who seduced the protaganist? Married out of obligations. Sexless relationship with husband, etc. The movie is 40 years old. Nothing new. Just read War and Peace... well over 100 years old now. remember the character of Helene Bezukhova, wife of Pierre. Same old story. Nothing new. This is an old fucking story. Pun intended. Oh my gosh, you are so right. Those uppity girls already said their piece so they shout STFU and get in the kitchen. And those black folk should stop complaining too. And no one wants to hear from those choir boys anymore. It's all been said before, right? Well I see history as a trend; as a group of people insisting--over and over--on their rights. Maybe her rights are to talk about an arragement that you don't agree about. Maybe they are to make money off an obviously unpopular topic. Nothing like a woman who does not follow the sociosexual norms to bring out the absolute vitrol in others. Funny how on a thread where men bash this woman--to the point of calling her a cunt--I am the only one who gets told I have a chip on my shoulder about the opposite gender. I find it facinating and mildly amusing. You said this was "new" and "historical". It's neither. Find me another book on this topic written like this by a woman and I'll give you that point. I defined what I consider historical (as a trend--not all of us can make our mark as individuals). There are other definitions. If this doesn't match yours, then we'll just agree to differ on that tiny point.

Two points. I always see you as being above the rest anyway. just not literally.

I just watched the Graduate recently. Remember the woman who seduced the protaganist? Married out of obligations. Sexless relationship with husband, etc. The movie is 40 years old. Nothing new. Just read War and Peace... well over 100 years old now. remember the character of Helene Bezukhova, wife of Pierre. Same old story. Nothing new. This is an old fucking story. Pun intended. Oh my gosh, you are so right. Those uppity girls already said their piece so they should STFU and get in the kitchen. And those black folk should stop complaining too. And no one wants to hear from those choir boys anymore. It's all been said before, right? Well I see history as a trend; as a group of people insisting--over and over--on their rights. Maybe her rights are to talk about an arragement that you don't agree about. Maybe they are to make money off an obviously unpopular topic. Nothing like a woman who does not follow the sociosexual norms to bring out the absolute vitrol in others. Funny how on a thread where men bash this woman--to the point of calling her a cunt--I am the only one who gets told I have a chip on my shoulder about the opposite gender. I find it facinating and mildly amusing. I also find it amazing that we rush to judge a relationship that is obviously working for the two of them--even if that woman doesn't want to admit it. She is right where she wants to be; and so is he.

What did one nun say to the other while riding their bikes on a cobble stone road? "I've never come this way before"

I find that strange as well. I don't understand how this relates to the conversation though. She apparently likes to do the deed, just not with her husband.

generaly men in this situation stay becasue they feel obligated to stay. they want to provide for the family they created. they stay out of a sense of duty. She clearly stated that this was her motivation as well. Men and women are not always so different from each other as we may think.

Sounds like you have quite a chip on your shoulder about women.

It is also interesting that folks don't really mention the husband. It's not like he has to stay married to her. But he has chosen to do so. We've bashed her for staying together for the kids, not giving her spouse sex, etc; however, we haven't mentioned that the person whom this most affects has chosen to stay under these conditions.

I think an article like that, or a response to her book that said this, would be a good idea.

I respectfully disagree.

But I do have fun with personal attacks--don't get me wrong.

There are different switches for different men http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/25/undercover.cop.ap/index.html would be the example of a bad one. But that is not my point. Neither is it my point to browbeat men. My point is, listen up, it is nice to live in an era and in a country where women can voice their opinions on sex. We don't have to agree with those opinions. But the fact that this is happening is wonderful. This is a part of history in the making, really. And to honor her opinion is an opportunity for each of us to practice honoring all opinions. Not agree, but recognize and honor. Simple. Straightforward. Not a personal attack.

that is obvious

Convincing.

And I think that what she says taps into a very real fear of men--not living up to a woman's expectations in bed. That frightens men, so they will immediately dismiss her and anything she has to say. Sucks, but its true.

I disagree with you. I think it is high time women have the same right men do for saying stupid things related to sex. Men do it all the time. This woman is smart enough to do it and make money off it.

where's my shirt?

threadkiller

Sounds like with her new book, she will be paying for the pig but gettin no sausage.

I would say yes. I would say in a committed relationship (meaning one that you want to stay in and one you value), your own sexual activities may very well be subsumed by the relationship. In other words, the sexuality of the individual comes after the sexuality of the relationship. Ideally, in a traditional marriage (meaning one without other agreements around sex) there is no sexuality outside of that marriage. I read that in Playboy.

Yeah, grim for you b/c as we women start making the money we need for our own financial security, we can do as we wish. And like the lady in the artical makes clear, sexual satisfaction is important to us. So some guys may find themselves in the same boat we used to be in-- "put up or shut up"